Americans of all ages do not score well on surveys of civic knowledge. So, on this podcast, we spoke with Tammy Wehrle, the legislative education and outreach officer in the Wisconsin State Legislature, about what she’s learned about the state of civics education through the programs she runs for young people.
Americans of all ages do not score well on surveys of civic knowledge. One recent survey found a large majority of respondents could not pass a basic civics literacy test and another indicated a third of respondents could not name all three branches of government. And testing of eighth graders in the U.S. and other industrialized countries also reported a decline in civics proficiency.
The vast majority of states, however, do require at least one course in civics and every state has some form of civics education. On this podcast, guest Tammy Wehrle, the legislative education and outreach officer in the Wisconsin State Legislature, talked about what she’s learned about the state of civics education.
Wehrle, who was a classroom educator and holds a doctorate, oversees a variety of programs in the legislature that can involve kids as young as 12. She thinks there is real value in young people seeing the legislature from the inside and understanding the range of roles necessary to run the legislature.
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Ed: Hello and welcome to “Our American States,” a podcast from the National Conference of State Legislatures. I’m your host, Ed Smith.
TW: We want to get them involved instead of engagement and that can look different for each and every young person.
Ed: That was Tammy Wehrle, the legislative education and outreach officer in the Wisconsin Legislature. She is my guest on the podcast. I wanted to talk to Tammy because she regularly interacts with young people about how government works and runs a variety of programs that bring kids into the Capitol. Americans of all ages do not score well on surveys of civic knowledge. One recent survey found a large majority of respondents could not pass a basic civics literacy test. And another indicated a third of respondents could not name all three branches of government. In testing of 8th graders in the US and other industrialized countries, also reported a decline in civics proficiency.
Tammy, who was a classroom educator and holds a doctorate, oversees a variety of programs in the legislature that can involved kids as young as 12. She thinks there is real value in young people seeing the legislature from the inside and understanding the range of roles necessary to run a legislature. Here is our discussion.
Tammy, welcome to the podcast.
TW: Thanks Ed. Thanks so very much for allowing me the opportunity to join you today and talk about what I’m really excited about doing in my career and discussing what happens with civic education in the Wisconsin Legislature and what we do to promote civic education in our state.
Ed: Well great. Let’s start there. Tell us about your role as a civics educator at the Wisconsin Legislature.
TW: Yeah. So, I’m a legislative education outreach officer for the Wisconsin State Legislature, which is a nonpartisan position. I have the honor and the joy to be able to connect to young people to the Wisconsin government and to the legislature and the legislators. I’m administrator of a few programs that happen in Wisconsin. The most prominent and the one that many people know about or we hope that they get to know about is the senate scholar program which we have four juniors and seniors in high school. That allows them to come to the Capitol for a week and to learn all about all facets of the government.
The other programs that I started and I started working in Wisconsin legislature in 2015 and I’ve created a couple of other programs ah page for a day program and with that just what it says. Students come and we take anyone from age 12 so about 6th grade through senior year and they come and spend the day with us and every day looks different for that program. And I also have kids at the Capitol and that program is for younger kids from anywhere from ages 5, 6 usually up until about 12 and they come and spend a half a day with us. So, I can tell you and you know one of my biggest roles for the job that I do is try and get kids excited about civics education and what the government does and the work that we do at the Capitol.
Ed: Let’s talk about that. I think most people who work in the government or public policy space hear story after story that young people don’t know how government works because they don’t get any civics education. Like most things, I expect the real picture is a little more nuanced, but tell us what you’ve found working with young people in Wisconsin.
TW: Yeah. So, you know thinking of generation and alpha and generation Z as they are trying to figure out the way of the world. One of things you know that I see is that young people need to be empowered and with that they have to use the knowledge to get to them what we know. And with that comes you know the learning process of and with my programs you know in Wisconsin they can come to the Capitol and actually see it. Just for some background, I’m an educator. I was a teacher in the classroom for 20 years before I came to work at the Capitol and came to work for the Legislature. And so, you know I was in the trenches and I know you know what happens in the classroom and one of the things that I see is our state is that we make it important to include civic education in our standards. You know all 50 states have standards that include civics education and 39 do require you know at least one course and so that’s something that is important. And from what and I’m going off of memory here about one or so required a citizenship test as well.
What I can tell you is with that knowledge and the civics education, you know, they are able to learn about the structure of government processes. We want to get them involved in civic engagement and that can look different for each and every young person. You know I had some young people yesterday that belonged to their actual student center at their school and I was chatting with them about how important it was that they are leaders at their school. But then also then when they graduate to be a part of the political process whether that means running for positions of course and first most voting, but to go out and be leaders above and beyond. One of the things, too, I think with knowing and especially with the programs I work with civics education is getting them to see and be a part of what we do and seeing it from the inside. And with many of the programs I have, they can come during session days and they can watch and sit on you know on the floor and sometimes they get to do page jobs meaning get to run errands for the senators and the legislators. Getting them involved that way and being able to see it from the inside out makes a huge difference for students.
TM: 07:09
Ed: I think its probably fair to say that government and government service are not held in high esteem by much of the public. I don’t really think that’s a new phenomenon, but it does pose some challenges in attracting young people to legislative staff jobs for example. What sort of feedback to you get from the young people you meet with as you did yesterday when you ask about interest in working in the public sector.
TW: So, one of the specific things with getting students involved is so that they can see you know what there is behind the scenes. It’s not just about the legislatures themselves, but there are so many other people who help and guide and make the process work. You know when we talk about partisan vs nonpartisan. On the partisan side, they have staffers and they do a lot of the behind the scenes work in with many of the nonpartisan staff. We use so much of the you know the behind the scenes work even in the nonpartisan piece. You know the institutional knowledge is important and we want to make sure that the young people know you know if you don’t want to run for an elected position. We have a lot of other things to offer in the government. I expose young people to we have a lot of public center service agencies and so we have a records bureau you know made up of our drafting attorneys. Those that draft the bills in the legislation because not all legislators come to us with a law background and actually most of them don’t nowadays. And our legislative council. Those are the people our attorneys who help guide us with any legal questions that may arise as well as helping us run committees. We’ve got the fiscal bureau and the audit bureau and of course talking about human resources or our technology people too. So, what I like to do is make sure that the young people are aware that these positions exist also. So, I think that’s something getting kids to see the big picture and being around and coming to the Capitol you know that’s something in the future I’d love it if all 50 states and even work with people internationally you know if they could have you know similar programs that we are able to provide in Wisconsin. You know be able to allow the young people the chance to see what happens you know behind the scenes; not just what they are going to see in the news and in the newspapers and read about. You know that leads us down a whole another level of media and press and trying to extricate the information of what’s real, what’s true, what’s not true and so we have that too. We can tell you with the senate scholar program that I offer kids, we do meet with members of the press with members of the media and they can talk to them and learn about what they do in regards with politics and chasing the stories and making sure that they can get the correct information out there. And that again, you know you get into that whole that nonpartisan piece and which side are you on. Which side are you reporting. So, I think that too exposing young people to so many different various jobs that are taking place in the government are so important.
Ed: For someone who spent more than 30 years as a print journalist, I think having young people meet with members of the press is a great idea. I think most people don’t have a very firm grasp of what reporters and journalists generally do and how they approach their jobs. Meeting with legislators is a good idea too. NCSL used to have a program where legislators visited classrooms and I wonder what you think about that model of civics education.
TW: Yeah, oh absolutely. When I first started working in the Wisconsin legislature, I made sure to incorporate NCSL’s legislators back to school program. They don’t offer that right now so the program no longer exists, but the approach and the importance of the program certainly exists and continues in Wisconsin. I’m getting our legislators in the classrooms going to the school districts is important as we are trying to you know foster those connections and expose them to the people you know who do these jobs. My programs, I mean I can only take limited numbers. I can’t take every student in the state. So, I think it’s important that we continue to get the legislators in the classrooms so. I can tell you from my own personal experiences as a teacher, I always invited politicians from both sides to come in and speak with students. And so, I was able to get a lot of folks coming into the classroom and talking about what they did, do and did, as well as letting my kids get to know them as human beings and who they are and what they believe in. And it wasn’t always political conversations necessarily. It was oftentimes getting to know and talk about what they do in the processes; not necessarily you know getting up on soapboxes and proselytize any information. It was telling about their jobs and what they do when they come up to the Capitol. Also then more specifically talking about what they are trying to do in their districts.
In Wisconsin and with many states of course, our regional areas have different needs. And you know we go to the very urban areas in the larger cities you know like a Milwaukee, but then we also then have more than counties who are still in need of broadband internet and so we have all of these you know different topics that the legislators are able to do.
TM: 13:31
Ed: You’ve mentioned people doing somewhat similar work in other states and I wonder how you keep in touch with those folks, share ideas and that kind of thing.
TW: Awe thanks to you guys at NCSL, you have provided so many opportunities for me to connect whether it’s the summit or even you know I belong to some sub-groups that I get to meet others who do the same jobs as I do. So, we get to come together face to face and of course we also will be Zooms or other meetings too or just your basic email. But I have been able to through the different conferences with NCSL to be able to get to meet people. We belong to or I should say I belong to you know the office I work for; I belong to the association ASLCS which is for the chief clerk’s offices. Last year, I was actually on the strategic planning committee to put together a new committee on civics education. It was something that we deemed as a society was very important for us to be able to give us the space to come together you know whether it was going to be on a website. We are still formulating these pieces, but giving others again who do or want to do you know different types of programs like we do in Wisconsin, giving them a place to be able to go to or a website and names of those of us who do this across the country. So, and other people that I work with from North Carolina to Washington State, Virginia, Florida, Oregon and actually just yesterday, I met with a young lady from DC who does the same type of job I do out at the U.S. Capitol. So, I got to meet Mary Beth Wagner yesterday. She was visiting the capitol and she came down and we talked and so I made a connection that way too. In our respective roles that we do across the country, we borrow and steal things from one another, ideas, different programs you know as we are trying to figure out and formulate what we are going to do for our young people. You know in the legislative world; we want to work together and we want to make sure you know we have the different resources that others are able to use. You know not every state is doing the exact same programs. Some have page programs that work with high schoolers. We don’t. In Wisconsin, we have college students you know who are our pages. So, it just varies from state to state, but it’s always amazing to hear you know what other states have. You know it’s just me in the state of Wisconsin. I look to other states to you know see how many people they have working in their programs and exactly who they work for and how they get their jobs done. So, I am very fortunate and I really appreciate NCSL and the support that they have given to us.
TM: 16:45
Ed: So, what’s the role of legislators here. How can they help contribute to the civics education of young people and the larger population as well?
TW: I think and I find myself very lucky in Wisconsin. I’ve had strong support from the legislators that I work with and I work for. One of the things is you know we keep using the word you know civics education, but also the education so that they are aware of the programs that we have that we can offer to young people. I have found that people are very willing once they find out about what we have to offer to be able to even utilize those who are you know working in civics education within their state. And a lot of times you know I always have to backtrack and say well you know I’m a licensed educator and this is the reason that I got this position is because they wanted to make sure that somebody had the right qualifications to be able to connect with young people. And so, I think having open dialogue with the legislators and the office staff has really helped you know me as we are progressing with the different programs that we have to offer.
And then it’s not you know just the programs that the kids can come and be a part of at the Capitol, but it’s also what they can use for different fun activity books or a set of guides that we have so the literature you know being able to get that out as well. And that was something you know we go back to the legislators back to school program you know NCSL used to have little pamphlet little things that were helpful and I still have those and I still use those. It is making that legislators know that they have the support that they need to be able to talk with young people and that you know with the going in the classrooms and meeting with students and talking with them face to face I think it is very important. As you know, the young people, they are going to be future voters and they are going to be our future leaders. So, I think it is important for those who are doing those positions to be able to talk with young people.
Ed: So, as we wrap up, Tammy, let me ask you what do you think the future of civics education looks like in Wisconsin and around the country. And given your experience and perspective, what do you think it should look like. Are there things you’d love to see happen in your state and in other states to raise the profile of civics education?
TW: Yeah. I believe, Ed, even at the state level you know continuing to give the opportunities to young people as well as incorporating more programs to even those who aren’t necessarily school aged cause I’ve had requests you know for people who are college aged as well as people who are outside of school and are older. We don’t want to necessarily coin the old phrase, but there are people who want to know what’s happening and have questions of how the government works. Just because you are 50 years old doesn’t mean you know still how the legislature works. So, I think that’s something that I am going to continue focusing on and trying to improve you know in Wisconsin and making that a priority you know as well as teaching people about the process and allowing them to take an active role you know in shaping what happens in the communities and improving the future in politics, but as well as that understanding.
Ed: Tammy, thanks so much for joining me today. I think this is a topic of great interest because honestly, I think most of us really don’t know what the state of civic education is in the country and I think we all know a little more thanks to you sharing your expertise. Take care.
TW: Alright. Thanks, Ed.
Ed: I’ve been talking with Tammy Wehrle from Wisconsin about civics education and the programs she runs with young people in the Wisconsin legislature. Thanks for listening.
TM: 21:07
You can check out all the podcasts from the National Conference of State Legislatures by searching for NCSL podcasts wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast “Our American States” dives into some of the most challenging public policy issues facing legislators. On “Across the Aisle” host Kelley Griffin tells stories of bipartisanship. Also check out our special series “Building Democracy” on the history of legislatures.