On this episode, the focus is energy security and energy challenges in Indian Country. Daniel Cardenas Jr., head of the National Tribal Energy Association, and Trent Marlett from the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma discussed how tribal members see their energy security
Tribal households in this country pay more than the average for electricity, and members of tribes often face a higher energy burden--the percentage of household income spent on energy—than many people. Also, there also are about 17,000 homes on tribal land have no electricity, according to a 2023 U.S. Department of Energy report to Congress. The report also noted the critical need for electricity infrastructure on tribal lands, some of which has been addressed through federal grants, loans and technical assistance to tribes.
On this episode we discussed energy security and energy challenges in Indian Country with Daniel Cardenas Jr., the CEO, president and chairman of the board of the National Tribal Energy Association, and Trent Marlett, energy manager for the utility authority of the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma.
Cardenas’ organization represents the four largest energy producing tribes. He noted that access to reasonably priced electricity is the greatest concern for tribal members and said the vast energy resources on tribal lands mean the future of energy is going to include them. Marlett explained how the Choctaw Nation works with their state energy generators to manage new projects and to try to stay up with the growth in the area and how folks in his state view energy security.
Resources
ES 1 (00:12):
Hello and welcome to “Our American States,” a podcast from the National Conference of State Legislatures. I'm your host, Ed Smith.
DC 2 (00:21):
If you talk to almost all the tribes, there's 5 74 tribes in the us. Energy security is going to be more about having access to cheap, affordable electricity.
ES (00:32):
That was Daniel Cardenas Jr., the CEO, president and chairman of the board of the National Tribal Energy Association, and one of my guests on this podcast to discuss energy security and energy challenges on tribal lands. He's joined by Trent Marlett, energy manager for the utility authority of the Choctaw Nation in Oklahoma.
Overall, tribal households in this country pay more than the average for power, and 17,000 homes on tribal land have no electricity, according to the 2023 U.S. Department of Energy report to Congress. The report also noted the critical need for electricity infrastructure on tribal lands, some of which has been addressed through federal grants, loans and technical assistance to tribes.
Cardenas’ organization represents the four largest energy producing tribes. He noted that access to reasonably priced electricity is the greatest concern for tribal members and said the vast energy resources on tribal lands mean the future of energy is going to include them. Marlett explained how the Choctaw Nation works with their state energy generators to manage new projects and to try to stay up with the growth in the area and how folks in his state view energy security
Here's our discussion, starting with Daniel Cardenas.
(01:54):
Daniel, thanks for coming on the podcast.
DC (01:57):
Well, thanks Ed for inviting me.
ES (01:59):
Let me ask you first, you're the CEO and chairman of the National Tribal Energy Association, and I wonder if you could tell our listeners a little bit about that organization, the people it represents and the work it does.
DC 2 (02:12):
Well, the National Tribal Energy Association started in the late Obama administration. It represents the four largest energy producing tribes, and so we have the Navajo Nation, which is the largest tribe by area and population, and they produce pretty much every energy or kind of energy fuel on their land; the Crow Nation, which is the largest owner of coal in the nation; the MHA, the three affiliated tribe, which is in North Dakota, they're in the Bakken. They produce about a third of all the oil in the Bakken. They're the largest oil producing tribe. And then the Southern Ute Indian Tribe, which is in Colorado, and they're the largest natural gas. So, between them, they produced over 90% on a BTU basis of all the energy produced on Indian Country on a reservation. So, there are still other tribes that produce energy, but they're not part of our association.
ES (03:17):
We wanted to talk about energy security and I wonder if you can talk a little bit about energy security and what that means for the folks that you represent and how does it differ from the way states think about energy security
DC (03:31):
Primarily? The problem with energy in general, as most people think about it in terms of flipping the switch at home, the electricity that we get, obviously that's a big part of it, but it also includes all the other types of energy that we produce and all the uses of it. But in an in-country energy security, if you talk to almost all the tribes, there's 574 tribes in the U.S., energy security is going to be more about having access to cheap, affordable electricity. That's really what comes in people's minds around energy security.
ES (04:09):
Let me just follow up on that a little bit because that was another question I wanted to ask you about. What are the biggest challenges that tribal communities face when it comes to energy. There's cost, there's access, there's reliability, there are other issues, but you're saying access and probably at a reasonable cost are really what is one of the biggest concerns?
DC (04:31):
Oh, for sure. There's a couple of things related to access, right? So, most tribes, most people in the U.S. have access to electricity with tribes. You have a situation where one third of tribal citizens actually live on an Indian reservation. That means two thirds do not. They live in suburbs. There was in other rural areas and they live in urban areas on reservation. Most people have access to electricity. My tribe's from California, I remember the Pitt river tribe, which is a small tribe in the northeastern part of the state. There are people that I know of that don't have electricity in the most populous, most richest state. They still are not hooked up because the utilities say they can't afford to hook people up. So, there are pockets of populations of people in Indian country that have no electricity or very unreliable electricity. There are some that choose not to have electricity. And so for instance, in some places on the Navajo Indian reservation, culturally some of the elders, some of the older people, some of the families culturally don't want to be attached to electricity. But that's a small handful. Most people that are on a reservation want electricity, just they either can't afford the hookup.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
The access to the utility, the price that the utility's charging for the poles or for the wires to be strong is too cost prohibitive. So I'd say the vast majority of folks do have it, the ones that don't, it's a cost issue. And then you couple that with energy burden where a large percentage of the income of a lot of Native Americans goes towards electricity, the heating, cooling. We bear a tremendous energy burden in Indian country, both on reservation, and then those Native Americans who choose to live in the city also tend to have higher energy costs than in the rural areas.
ES (06:45):
So while access is there for almost everyone, cost is a barrier, even such a barrier that it keeps some people from getting it, it sounds like.
DC (06:54):
For sure, for sure. Yeah, exactly. And because I'll add to that is Native Americans on average, right? If you look at census data and other statistics, we tend to be some of the lowest wage earners or incomes towards the bottom. And so you couple that with, so rates of poverty are higher and all the other statistics tend to place us towards the lower percentiles of income coupled with higher energy costs. It's just a tsunami of costs.
ES (07:31):
And, of course, there is some irony in the fact that you're among the largest energy producing groups in the country and yet some significant obstacles there for people trying to afford energy.
DC (07:42):
Let me just add again to that is so when everybody else thinks about energy security, and the way I normally think about it and the way the administration, President Trump's administration and probably most of the states think about energy security is securing resources. And so Indian country, the natural resources that we collectively own, whether it's fossil energy, resources around renewables, wind and solar biomass, geothermal, hydro are some of the richest lands in the country. So, on an energy security basis, we are big players or we have the potential to supply a large portion of the future energy needs in this country. Not even talking about critical minerals and other ancillary resources that tie into energy of the future that are in Indian country as well that haven't been tapped. I always use the tagline that the energy transition goes through Indian country. So no matter what we do in the future, whether it's a renewable path, whether it's through advanced energy like nuclear or more efficient fossil energy, no matter what those paths look like, it's all going to go through Indian country. And I think that's an opportunity, it's a curse, but it's also an opportunity, a double-edged sword.
ES (09:08):
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a really excellent point. Let ask you a little about funding for energy security projects. Have you seen promising partnerships that you've been able to explore for those kind of projects?
DC (09:24):
A little bit complicated, right? Over the last four years, a lot of resources came attend in country or promise from the last administration from the Biden administration, primarily around renewables. And so those really went to funding planning for micro projects, small community sized projects where making money or having a profit was not the number one goal. And so although a lot of focus has been on that and it's needed, there really hasn't been a focus on commercial scale projects, large utility scale projects. There are some existing power production on several of the reservations, but not a lot, not really compared to our neighbors and compared to other places in the U.S., as I mentioned, resources have come in from the feds, from our federal partners with the new administration, some of that has obviously with the Big Beautiful Bill, some of those funds have been repealed and rescinded.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
We haven't figured out yet what that impact is going to be. And so looking at states, looking our state partners, not all states obviously are made equal or made. They're not all the same, but some of the states have been doing really good job over the last decade providing resources to tribes, California, Colorado states in the northwest, Minnesota of all the states are probably on the top end of providing grant resources and funding have sort of opened up the doors. It wasn't always that way. I'm originally from California, my tribe's from California, and when I was younger, that wasn't the case in California. But now among the states, it's probably the top reformer in terms of opening up their purse strings and allowing tribes, tribal governments, tribal organizations to access funding that cities and the counties and other entities have.
ES (11:34):
I think you were going to follow up and say something about private actors in this area and tell us about that.
DC (11:42):
Yeah, in the private sector, I think in a different way, the private sector has been more open, more willing to tribes and forming relationships with them because obviously in their mind there's a profit motive. And so there have been successful projects that have been built on Indian country. Granted, these are primarily owned by those companies, so they're solar, some solar projects in Nevada on the Mopa Indian reservation that the tribe gets a lease payment, rent payment. They're really not partners in the actual project. There are some wind projects that are, again, commercial scale that some tribes have on their lands. Same. There's a couple of natural gas power plants that I know of on the border of California and Arizona. Calpine operated that for a long time and I'm not sure if they still do. And then obviously we know of some of the, just until recently, the Navajo generating station, which is a coal plant that got closed down under the first Trump administration, there still is four corners of power plants that's operated, I think by a PS from Arizona that still operates. There has been some investment by the private sector in Indian Country, but Indian Country is over 60 million acres plus, and there's only a handful of projects. And so I see that as an opportunity to do more in the future. The door is open, it's not wide open yet.
ES (13:23):
Well, you sound like an optimistic guy, Daniel. I think you're looking at the bright side that maybe there's more opportunity there for people. Let me ask you about something that has come up again and again when I've done energy podcasts over the last couple of years, and that's cybersecurity. And I wonder about the concern in Indian Country about that and whether you have the resources to try to address that issue.
DC (13:48):
I think it's a concern just as Americans in general, if we understand the power industry transmission and we understand our 21st century issues, challenges, cybersecurity is at the top of the list because of the internet of things. I mean, as we become more connected, we open ourselves up to more bad actors. In Indian Country, this is probably the area that we have the least capacity to deal with. There are some tribal utilities, just a handful. Most of the utilities other than large utilities that cover certain states, most of the utility service comes from co-ops in Indian Country because most Indian Country's rural. And so those utilities aren't making big profits to begin with. So they're also have probably a deficiency when dealing with cybersecurity and then we're even less. And so that's an opportunity, an area for growth that we need to gain capacity. When we talk about capacity, really we're talking about it is not just money, it's the knowledge, the professional experience to be able to secure our transmission lines, our infrastructure, all our infrastructure, whether it's water housing, some tribes have casinos and other businesses. And so it's trying to secure those things too. And so we're really stretched thin in terms of the capacity. So cybersecurity I think is something we think about and a lot of us, it keeps us awake at night, but we really don't have any resources to deal with.
ES (15:28):
Yeah, I did a podcast several weeks ago talking with some people from a co-op and a municipal utility. They had some of the same concern that what they really need is sort of the knowledge to come in and help them do at least the basic things to ensure that they've got decent cyber hygiene. I hear you that that is going to be a real challenge and I think it's a challenge for a lot of folks. As we finish up here, Daniel, the audience here is largely state legislators, legislative staff, some other people interested in policy, and I wonder what you would stay to state lawmakers around the country and how they might better work with tribal communities, work with your organization around these energy issues.
DC (16:13):
I think first it's to invite them to the table slowly. It's happening with, for instance, with the National Utility Commission, the association that's for those guys. I've been to some of their meetings, the association around the state energy offices. They've done a good job at inviting me and including me and our organization and what they're trying to do with the states. And so I think the ball is rolling, but for instance, there's another organization like the Western Interstate Energy Board, which represents I think 10 or 11 of the Western states and then two provinces in Canada, although they're set up for the states, I mean they're set up through their legislators or set up legislatures, and there's funding that those states provide so that their legislators and staff can participate. And although tribes technically can be invited to their gatherings, a lot of tribes don't have not just the capacity, they don't have the resources to attend those meetings or participate, and they're not part of the governing structure.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
So I think a role for the states or something to think about in the future is to start for legislators to start thinking about how do we incorporate tribal governments into those kind of bodies because we're not going to recreate the will. But I think that that's a low hanging fruit to be able to take existing organizations and structures and modify them so that tribes can participate if they so choose. And so that's just one example of I think where there's room for growth and an opportunity that is something that I'm pursuing is just that
ES (17:58):
I really think you're right. I think the answer to a lot of these things is often more communication, more effort to include more voices, listen to people more. So I thank you for walking us through this and telling us what's going on with your organization and your community. Thanks very much, and take care.
DC (18:15):
Well, thanks a lot, Ed. Thanks for inviting me and I appreciate it.
ES 1 (18:20):
I'll be right back after the short break with Trent Marlett.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
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ES (19:27):
Trent, great to have you on the podcast.
TM (19:29):
Well, thanks Ed, I appreciate it. Appreciate the opportunity and it's nice meeting you and being able to talk about a topic that I think is very important these days. So, yeah, I'm looking forward to it.
ES (19:42):
So, why don't we start and let you tell our listeners a little bit about your role as energy manager for the utility authority there in Oklahoma, the Choctaw Nation?
TM (19:52):
Ok, sure. So I think a little context is due here. So we're utility authority, but unfortunately it's in name only and that trips a lot of people up. We're fully integrated into the state and we're dependent upon our utility providers to bring us power, water, all of our utilities. So, it's a little misleading on the front end, but it's interesting. It started in ’14 as a grant to pursue a full-blown tribal utility authority. There wasn't at the time quite enough support. I think there was a lot of lessons learned that it kind of phased out, but leadership did agree that it's beneficial to have our own utility authority to manage all things really focused on management. In the beginning, I was in, as a utility coordinator, it a brand new position, brand new department, and I was really a liaison between the utility companies and the Choctaw Nation that had to do with a lot of coordination on construction projects, infrastructure in ground, and helping out with outages. And then it just has evolved over the years. We do a whole lot, but as far as energy management, we actually just started and I was awarded the energy manager job 24. And so it aligns with my background. I come from a co-op, Western Farmers, Cotton Electric Cooperative in Oklahoma.
TM (21:30):
I think with the times and economy revenue streams were not performing as well as expected start other ways that save on the bottom end operations. So it just aligned perfectly and we hit the ground running. So what I've been asked to do is just what you would think an energy manager does is help develop and implement these energy management strategies across all Choctaw facilities. There's bunch, we're over 350 facilities … here in southeast Oklahoma just look for ways to optimize our conservation and our operations and look for areas that we're wasting energy. And it's been a really successful two years so far. We drafted a policy leadership, loved it. We ended up saving just on behavioral change. I'm proud of this. That's why I mentioned it just on behavioral change and operating. Our facilities just more focused and with energy in mind, we were able to save 2 million the first year without spending any capital. So that's really my role. And I also work hand in hand with our utility providers, our local municipalities, and it's a great job and I really enjoy it.
ES (22:46):
Well, that's great background. I think that is the context that maybe legislators wouldn't necessarily have. So thanks for walking us through that. The thrust of this podcast is to talk about energy security and that means different things to different communities in very different ways. And I wonder for the Choctaw Nation, for those folks there in Oklahoma, and maybe it's all these things, but you tell us the priorities. Is it access? Is it affordability, resilience, reliability? How does that shape up for the people who are served by
TM (23:26):
I think energy security, it's relatively a new phrase to me. It's a buzzword, but I think a lot of what we're doing fully aligns with energy security and so to your point, yeah, all of those things are very important. It's our ability to access reliable, affordable energy that can meet our growth because we have grown substantially over the 10 years that I've been here. We have such good relationship with our utility providers and their challenges. We want to make sure we're able to work with them and that can be sustainable. That's really what it means to us. Now, again, a little more context. I think a lot of people, just from all the meetings and networking I've done over the years, I think when they think of tribes or Choctaw Nation, I think our minds automatically go to a true reservation nowhere, zero infrastructure. It's all on the tribe to meet the needs of the tribal members facilities.
TM (24:31):
But again, we're fully integrated here in the state of Oklahoma. We haven't really started pursuing any of our own generation, but we're definitely looking at it. So right now, our approach is just to again, partner with the people that we're dependent on for our energy needs while reducing, again, our energy footprint really come a long way with our low cost, no capital be changes to reduce demand on the grid. Also, we're very fortunate here in Oklahoma, we do have probably the most competitive rates in the nation. It's very attractive cost per kilowatt hour. I think that attracts a lot of businesses right now, the buzzword is data centers, they're really interested in Oklahoma. So that's a concern. Our providers and utility providers having such a good at rate that has its own challenges because when we do look at resource projects, solar investment, it's very at, we're all comparing it to a relatively low cost of energy versus someone maybe wanted to do a project in California, which has a much higher rate.
ES (26:03):
Well, I can't tell you how many conversations I've had on energy podcasts about data centers. They do seem to be driving an awful lot of the consumption here in the next few
TM (26:15):
Years. One other thing I might add Ed, if that's okay, it just dawned on me we're not really like a typical reservation like I mentioned earlier, but we're in southeast Oklahoma, Oklahoma, such a wonderful state and I've always lived here and it’s so many different ecosystems, geographies. So, down here in southeast reliability and resilience is also a big topic just because of, again, we're in Oklahoma, it seems like we get the gambit of severe weather from heat, tornadoes, winds, and also storms. Just it interesting. That's also a focus of ours, how we continue more resilient.
ES (27:07):
Yeah, I've spent quite a bit of time in Oklahoma. I'm pretty familiar with the state's. Beautiful. Ask you in the context described here, major projects come along and assume would probably be initiated more by the utility you partner with. What kind of role does your utility have in that and what kind of financing models are available to do any of these major projects?
TM: Sure. So funding projects, specifically energy projects, it's challenging since the 10 years I've been here. We do not utilize any debt mechanism of funding. We don't really have loans if the tribe can't pay for it, if the case has not been made goods challenge approved. Now since we're so dependent on providers, I also think that they're maybe not as equal as dependent on us, but we're such a large economic driver here in southeast Oklahoma. They're approaching us with some projects that maybe they're looking at. It's going to help them. It's also going to help us. You have a unique standing with the federal government on funding. Tribes have a little bit of, I don't want to call it advantage, but a unique situation where there is a tribal funds specifically for tribe.
TM (28:30):
So we using quite grants from the Biden administration, we're navigating through right now, and I'll you an example of a really successful project just finished it's resort, almost S hills, lots of trees. It's beautiful. It's pretty raw on the front end of that as a price to that beautiful setting. There was zero infrastructure, there was very little power. The co-op there that serves that area, they were having a hard time, the demand of the growth, cabins, businesses. So here we're wanting to put in a huge resort with a load upwards of 5 megawatts. We were able to work with Western Farmers, the transmission generation, Oklahoma, really a transmission line that crossed the of this property ready. We were able to come to the table and work with them and that is going to help them, this area growth, but also use the other two feeders out of that substation to meet some of that demand. So I would say that partnerships are paramount in everything. That's just one example of several projects that we've done.
ES (30:13):
That's a great example. Other than you mentioned your relationship with the feds. How about state and private partners?
TM (30:24):
So definitely private partners. Part of us starting this energy management, it was really just me in the beginning. Since hired an energy auditor, we realized real quick that we need a lot of help. We were able to really get leadership on board with using some tribal dollars to partner with a third party consultant. That performed a very large tribal wide feasibility study for us. It took a little over a year. We just wrapped it up actually. So what the goal of that was, was to help us really identify what we're focused on, energy efficiency opportunities, conservation opportunities, and then help us create a roadmap to start looking at those more sustain technologies. They did a wonderful job and it was a huge success in that we really went from where do we want to go to, here's how we do it. We were able to budget for enough funding to retrofit over 20 facilities with LEDs and start some retro commissioning at some of our larger plants, our casino headquarters. So really excited about that and the amount of energy that can save. So yeah, we do have really good dealings with federal and private. Now state on the other hand, we haven't really worked with them to my knowledge on energy security now. We're certainly open to it. That's another one challenge that I think is unique to tribes is that maintaining sovereignty while also allowing these partnerships to really mature and collaborate. It's always a challenge.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Let me ask you about cybersecurity. This, of course, is an issue in all kinds of industries and certainly in utilities. To what degree do you guys interact with your utility and talk with them about concerns about cybersecurity?
Speaker 4 (32:28):
Sure. I think, again, it's definitely a topic that we've started really trying to focus on and work with earlier. We're dependent upon our utility providers and so they need to know from us our concerns of what they're doing as far as their cybersecurity measures, and I can't really provide a good answer yet as to what they're doing. I want to say they're familiar with the topic and they have told us that yes, we're starting to really focus on this. So the conversations definitely started. Now internally, the Choctaw Nation, we own and operate two of our own data centers. We've got a really robust IT department and we actually house these data centers we use. So there are servers, that's our infrastructure. We run our fiber lines out of these data centers to our facilities. We have to go through mandatory annual cybersecurity training.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Well, I'll tell you in talking with cybersecurity experts, basic training for employees not to open those emails and not to click on links is just a huge part of cybersecurity. Lemme ask you, go back to the state for a second. A lot of state lawmakers and legislative staff, others interested in state policy, what should state officials know how to better deal with the Choctaw Nation in terms of energy resilience, energy security? What would you like them to know that maybe they don’t know?
Speaker 4 (34:07):
I think states and tribes, I think it's a two-way street, takes two to dance type deal. But I think again, it's just know that and they know this. We're such an economic driver and we're fully integrated in the state of Oklahoma. And so I think if we come to that common ground, that, and not to say that there's any negative ground there, but it does have its challenges. But just to come to that common thinking that what's good for Oklahoma is going to be good for Choctaw Nation. I don’t know the exact percentage, but I would say that there's a pretty high percentage of tribal members who live in the state of Oklahoma. I mean naturally it goes without saying. And so these are Oklahoma citizens as well as they live in Oklahoma, but they're also Choctaw Nation. What benefits us is going to benefit the state and vice versa.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
As we wrap up here, Trent, let me ask you, you've had quite a bit of change there from what you described earlier in our interview. What do you see in the future for the Choctaw nation and energy security generally there?
Speaker 4 (35:15):
So I think that first year when we started our energy management department, it was a great success and it caught a lot of attention and a lot of pats on the backs. And it really has, in my opinion, showed our leadership that, hey, this is important. And I think it's just continuing to gain education on the topics of the day and the challenges. One thing I can say about the Choctaw nation is the chief and the council and the assistant chief pride themselves or the nation prides itself on having not just a one year vision, but a hundred year vision. And so I think energy security, energy management, I think it's starting to see that cultural shift and say, Hey, we need to focus on this. And we've already been challenged from leadership in that. What does it look like to be a true tribal utility authority? What does energy sovereignty look like to where we're not so dependent upon our utility providers? I think we'll always be grid tied just for redundancy and resiliency. We're starting to get a lot of support in our efforts and continuing these conversations with our utility companies, with our utility department of energy. And then I would love to start working with our state on some of this type stuff. So I think that's just going to continue.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
Well, Trent, thank you so much for taking the time. I think you've explained a lot of things that I think a lot of legislators, others in state government might not grasp the nuance of for tribal nations. So thank you for that. I think that clarifies a lot of things and you have a good day and take care.
Speaker 4 (37:00):
Alright, ed, thank you. Appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
I've been talking with Daniel Cardenas of the National Tribal Energy Association and Trent Marlet of the Choctaw Nation about the challenges to energy security for tribes. Thanks for listening. You can find NCSL podcasts wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast are American states dives into some of the most challenging public policy issues facing legislators, our occasional series across the aisle, feature stories of bipartisanship. Also check out our special series Building Democracy on the history of legislatures.