This episode will explore mental health and behavioral health in the workplace. Our guests include Julie Hocker, assistant secretary for Disability Employment Policy at the U.S. Department of Labor, and Michigan Representative Curtis VanderWall.
This episode explored mental health and behavioral health in the workplace, including the role of employers and legislators in helping people facing mental health conditions.
Our guests included Julie Hocker, assistant secretary for Disability Employment Policy at the U.S. Department of Labor, and Michigan Representative Curtis VanderWall.
This discussion came during Mental Health Awareness Month, a time to take stock of how mental health issues can affect the workplace, communities, and families.
Assistant Secretary Hocker addressed the scope of the problem, noting that despite a growing need, nearly 140 million Americans live in places with a shortage of behavioral health workers. She also discussed ways the federal government, states, and employers can support workers facing mental health-related issues.
Representative VanderWall discussed legislation he sponsored to create a student mental health apprenticeship and internship program in Michigan. He explained why it was needed and his hopes for the program long-term.
Resources
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Hello and welcome to Our American States, a podcast from the National Conference of State Legislatures. I'm your host, Ed Smith.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
“Mental health is now one of the most important workforce issues in America.”
Speaker 1 (00:28):
That was Julie Hocker, an assistant secretary in the U.S. Department of Labor where she leads the Office of Disability Employment Policy. She's my guest on the podcast along with Representative Curtis VanderWall of Michigan.
Our focus for this episode is on mental health and behavioral health in the workplace, including the role of employers and legislators in helping people cope with mental health challenges.
Our discussion comes during Mental Health Awareness Month, a time to take stock of how mental health issues can affect the workplace, communities, and families.
Assistant Secretary Hocker addressed the scope of the problem, noting that despite a growing need, nearly 140 million Americans live in places with a shortage of behavioral health workers. She also discussed ways the federal government, states, and employers can support workers facing these challenges.
Representative VanderWall discussed legislation he sponsored to create a student mental health apprenticeship and internship program in Michigan.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
He explained why it was needed and his hopes for the program long-term.
Here's our discussion, starting with Assistant Secretary Hocker.
Assistant Secretary Hocker, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Well, thanks for having me today, Ed. I am glad to be here. We have a great and important conversation to have today, so glad to join you.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
To start out, this is Mental Health Awareness Month and I wonder if you could talk about why that's an important thing as it relates to the nation's workforce and what the research tells us about the scale of both mental health and substance use challenges facing the country today.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yeah. Ed, you make a really good point. Mental health is now one of the most important workforce issues in America today. It affects the day-to-day wellbeing and productivity of every one of us and it determines whether or not a worker can stay connected to a job and a paycheck to support themselves and their families. And likewise, for our nation's businesses, employers see the end result as missed workdays, higher turnover and trouble with productivity. This is a moment that we have to look at and we also need to be honest about the numbers. Nearly half of all American workers report moderate to severe levels of depression, anxiety and burnout. And more than three quarters of us have reported experiencing work related stress in the last month alone. And substance abuse disorders can't be overlooked either. More than 46 million American adults today have experienced a substance use disorder within the last 12 months and nearly two out of the three are in our workplaces today.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
These aren't abstract numbers and they're not small numbers certainly, but they are our coworkers and our employees. The other thing I want to talk about is we're doing a lot around destigmatizing mental health and people are talking more openly than ever before and I give a lot of credit to some of our younger generations who have really encouraged and pushed those conversations. But awareness is just not enough. It's not enough for us to be knowledgeable anymore. We have to make sure that workers have the supports they need, they have the accommodations in place and that there's a stronger connection between work and mental health than ever before. I'll sort of end with this and say we have to address the fragmentation in the system and I hope that we get a chance to talk about that today because when health, education and workforce systems don't align, people fall into a maze of confusion of programs and they simply lose momentum.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
And that's why we need to have a practical conversation around coordinated solutions that really help Americans with mental health disorders and substance use disorders stay in their jobs.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Well, I think as you suggest here, an enormous number of us not only know people who have mental health conditions, but many people have faced those challenges themselves. I know just within my own family members who had both substance use problems and some serious mental health issues. I think as we think about that, I'm wondering how legislatures and workplaces should think about that, the significance of that and how they should start addressing this situation that you've just laid out.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Yeah, absolutely. You raised a really good point that mental health is touching every one of us and our families and our friends and our colleagues. A really important point here is that when states modernize their mental health policies, programs and priorities, workers don't just get care, they get careers. That's why here at the US Department of Labor under the leadership of acting Secretary Keith Sonderling, we understand that building the strongest workforce in the world means building a strong mental health workforce. Work itself is the mental health intervention. A paycheck is medicine that a state can prescribe and that's why we're coming alongside states with practical ideas and solutions that actually work. And I want to outline a couple of really practical solutions and initiatives that states can go after today and I want to highlight that here at the US. .Department of Labor, we have resources ready to come alongside states to do this.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
But the first priority I would outline is we have to prioritize mental health as a driver for workforce participation. We need to include employment as a critical mental health recovery strategy and finally, states need to continue to strengthen their mental health provider workforce. And we can go right back to number one. Mental health is not an option. It is not a benefit. It is an economic driver. Look, we know that stress and challenging life events and serious mental health conditions paired with low access to care ultimately reduces workforce participation and productivity. Workers in America, they get this. They overwhelmingly want their employers to recognize that there is an important role that their employer plays in promoting workplace mental health. Nine out of 10 employees today in America want their employer to do something to improve mental health outcomes and that's why we're calling on states to strengthen and align education, health and workforce systems.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
When we take away that fragmentation at the state level and we remove the barriers of confusion of what program can help me and what do I need and how do I get this help and that support, when we take away the hours of trying to navigate that maze of disconnected programs and we give workers a clear path forward, suddenly work is the light at the end of the tunnel. Suddenly we hand everyone a roadmap that can help them stay focused on continuing to pursue education training while managing their health care and while staying engaged at work and bringing that paycheck home. I have to be honest, I think we talk about this quite a bit and we say, "Wow, that's a lot of work that we have to do. " And it is, but there are states doing this and some states really doing well in the innovation space.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
And so, we need to look toward them for good examples because when we invest in mental health, we are not just treating conditions and diagnoses, we're recognizing the dignity and the value of every American and we are unleashing the full potential of the greatest workforce in the world. And I think that's incredible and it's so exciting to see where states are leaning in and we're eager here at the US. Department of Labor to help other states join us.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Well, of course here at NCSL, we are always on the lookout for ways to learn from other states. So I think that's an excellent point. We're talking with legislators, legislative staff, and I wonder what can states do to address these issues? Where are you seeing good ideas?
Speaker 2 (09:50):
I've worked in the financial industry and I've worked in government a couple of times both at Health and Human Services and here at the Department of Labor and I have to say one thing that is always true, states are the innovation laboratories of America and we are seeing solid examples that are worth taking a look at. And I thought I might mention something that the state of Wyoming did for their own employees, which is always a good place to start. They took some really practical steps and I want to outline those for everybody today to show that sometimes these are really simple practical steps we can take today. In Wyoming, they expanded their employee assistance program for state employees so that they provided more holistic support, things like short term counseling, legal and financial consultations and work life benefits. And this just reached beyond those standard minimum requirements that employers have and it really got to the challenges and the milestones that come across our lives while we are employees who are growing our own careers.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Again, that's an easy place to start, certainly not the only idea, but certainly stuck out to me when I came across it.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
So you were just talking about Wyoming and to your second point there, talk about employment as a mental health strategy. What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Here's what we know. When Americans are in crisis, mental health crisis, recovery crisis, we know that the sooner that they talk about going back to work or finding a good paying job, the sooner they do that, the more likely they are to return to work or get that good paying job than if they wait to start that conversation. Every day that an American is on the economic sidelines, they get closer to never going back to work and instead getting trapped in the reliance of public benefits. And so we want to change that. And so a couple of weeks ago I was out in the Midwest and I was visiting with the Mayo Clinic and some doctors out there that we've been partnering with for the last couple of years, last five years here at the Department of Labor to really pressure test this and to look at what intervention and strategies work.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
And here's what we found out. At the Mayo Clinic, when they were able to identify individuals who were recently injured or ill, and they identified them as high risk of losing their job and being disconnected from the workforce and they provided that individual with a case manager who said, "Work is a part of the recovery plan. It's a medical outcome. It's a health outcome." And they were able to help break down those silos of talking to your doctor one day and your boss at work another and the supports in social services in yet another conversation. And when they bring those together and they talk about what it takes, what does it look like to go back to work and they bring that into a really kind of one conversation for the individual. What the Mayo Clinic was able to do through their case management system was actually have more patients stay at work and they had fewer patients apply for benefits like Social Security and Medicaid.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
I think that's incredible when a patient gets to say, "I'll know that I'm better when I'm able to be back at work full time. I know that I'm better when I can start to go back to work and I have what I need to have that conversation with my doctor and with my boss." Now, one of the things that you might be wondering is, okay, but what happens when the Department of Labor goes away? Well, we don't. We're alongside of our states to make sure that we spread this innovation, but what I love about what they're doing out there in Rochester and across the state is they're taking the opportunity to use vocational rehabilitation, disability and innovation fund dollars to continue to expand what they're seeing is working, which is incredible. And what we want is all states to think about how they can use various sources of grants, funding and existing infrastructure to bring innovation that's working in other states like what we're seeing at the Mayo Clinic and to realize how they can break barriers down so that they can see more patients and more workers talk about recovery, talk about employment as a part of recovery on day one, connect the conversation and break down silos, get the support that they need and count a great outcome for an injured or ill worker as being able to go back to work instead of applying for benefits and getting stuck in that trap.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Now another area, I think it was the third point you made had to do with the mental health workforce and I really can't tell you how many podcasts I've done over the last several years where the issue of the mental health workforce has come up. Talk to us a little bit about that and what are the strategies there.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Yeah, I'll just start with a number that really surprised me the first time I came across it that I haven't been able to get it out of my mind. 40% of Americans today live in a mental health professional shortage area, 137 million Americans today and I think even more alarmingly but likely related, 54% of American adults who have a mental health disorder are not getting the treatment and intervention that they need and you can see the clear connection here. But what we know is that Americans want to go to work. They're looking for the training, the education and the credentials to get good paying jobs and to be on a career path. So one of the things that states can look at doing is strengthening their workforce and solving workforce shortages where the demand is simply higher than the number of workers that they have.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
So that again, going back to this idea of a win-win, what we will see is more Americans will get the help that they need and they'll be able to stay at work and more Americans will build the training and credentials they need to build great careers that are in demand in the states and communities where they live. Out in Kentucky they've done this and they've done it well and I think they've kind of laid out a really great path for many of the Kentuckians in their state and they looked at this problem and they set training and registration requirements for alcohol and drug peer support specialists. They looked at curriculum completion, standardized exams and minimum recovery and practice standards and they gave individuals a clear path to that career. And in Colorado, they actually enacted legislation that created behavioral health first responders, that people that were already likely to interact with someone in crisis, they had essentially a first aid training to help them out.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
And so they educated teachers and educators, law enforcement officers, they helped first responders and even military personnel really understand how to recognize the signs of a mental health crisis and most importantly, how to properly intervene and provide supports with people for people with substance abuse disorders and those in mental health crises. So they're really equipping their workforce right in Colorado to be able to do what they need to do when they need to do it. They're doing their jobs well and people in their state are getting the help they need. Those are two practical ways, but there's certainly many, many other states doing incredible work to build that pathway. But if 137 million Americans are living in an area where they can't reach the interventions and treatments they need, we've got a long way to go. And if you've got citizens in your state who are looking for great jobs and they're asking what training and credentials they can go to, we certainly want to see a path for mental health professionals.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
I always think of this podcast as a starting point for listeners, we're not going to give them all the information they need. And I wonder if we've got legislators out there listening to this and I think this is a policy they want to learn more about, I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about the best way for them to learn more about that and find out if it's something that they want to get involved in in their state.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
One of the things that we want all of our state lawmakers to know more about is the state exchange, unemployment and disability. We call it SEED here at the Department of Labor and it really is a policy development and technical assistance center hub and it brings together state policy makers from all across the country and it provides practical guidance, toolkits, roadmaps, but also, and this is what I love about it, practical examples that you can pull from and connect with your fellow state lawmakers and your fellow state employees all across the country to hear how they did it. And one of the best things I also like to encourage people to do is learn from others mistakes. And that's exactly what we're trying to do at the national level is look at the states, see what's working, see what's not working, let's not replicate those and let's really take all of these ideas that we have and make sure that other states can replicate them.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
That's efficient, that's fast, and it gets more American workers staying in their job or returning to work. So the first thing I want to do is encourage everyone to participate in the state exchange. You can visit our website, ol.gov to be connected, but we've got a great team there at the exchange ready to help out in really practical ways and also to help you be more connected throughout the country so that you're not doing this alone.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
So speaking about practical strategies, you alluded to workplace based supports, specifically what employers can do and what are some of those things? What would you highlight?
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Yeah, absolutely. We think a lot about reasonable accommodations in disability employment, but we also a lot of people when they hear the word reasonable accommodation, they think costly physical modifications to a workplace or to a workstation. People like me who uses a wheelchair full-time might need some modifications to my desk or my work environment. In practical terms, a reasonable accommodation is a simple change in the workplace or to the way a task is done that helps the employee to do their job effectively without creating undue hardship on their employer. And I know what you're thinking. Wait, I thought we were talking about mental health care. Why are we talking about reasonable accommodations? And I can tell you that I hope that this question gets people thinking because there are really incredible and easy mental health reasonable accommodations that we're seeing every day through our job accommodation network to help people with mental health diagnoses succeed at work.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Let me give you a couple of ideas to kind of paint the picture here. And these are ones that we've seen recently and ones that we know are working. Offering someone with a diagnosis, a flexible schedule or a break plan that helps them out, providing clear and written instructions as an alternative to verbal instructions in the workplace. Some individuals might need a quieter or darker workplace so that they can reduce noise or overexposure to light and others may benefit from a remote or hybrid work arrangement when that's possible given the job. And here's the thing, each of those that we just talked about is free or really no cost at all to the employer, but it allows the employee to remain engaged, to remain productive and suddenly we're talking about reducing the cost of higher turnover and reducing the cost of less productivity. But I want to go one step further because I think this is really important.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
When we start talking about reasonable accommodations that help one worker, we lift the entire workplace up for all of the workers around them. Suddenly they see that it's okay to ask for help at work, that it's received with an open conversation. And the other thing that we see all the time is that a modification or accommodation that helps one often helps many others or can actually improve the entire work environment overall and then suddenly you're improving the mood and the workplace culture and everybody is more productive. And so we always encourage employers to look beyond reasonable accommodations as simply a compliance issue and we think about it as an opportunity to improve the workplaces all across America and to improve the productivity and culture of our workplaces. I know this is probably an overused phrase, but it's a classic win-win for our American workers and our American businesses.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Elsewhere on the podcast, I'm talking with Representative Curtis VanderWall of Michigan about legislation he's sponsored to create mental health apprenticeships and internships. These apprenticeships can lead to stable well-paying careers and offer opportunities to people living with disabilities. I wonder if you could talk about how your department sees the value of these types of programs.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Well, I'm really glad that we're having this conversation too. We're just coming off of National Apprenticeship Week here at the U.S. Department of Labor, but really all across the country and we could not be more thrilled to come alongside President Trump's vision of a million new registered apprentices here in America. I mean, what a phenomenal and aggressive goal and we're working towards that every single day. I think we need to make two points here. First off, what's incredible about the apprenticeship opportunity is we suddenly allow individuals to earn a paycheck today and not have to wait while they earn a degree far in the future. We take away that either or and we suddenly allow people to earn while they learn so that individuals, any American who's ready to go to work but need to develop the skills and go through the training and credentialing that they need, they can start to earn a paycheck, build those skills, be connected to their employer, and be tracked for a great career right in the community where they live.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Now for Americans with disabilities, this is an incredible opportunity and I can tell you this, every day at the U.S. Department of Labor, as we are working to improve apprenticeship programs, strengthen technical assistance, help connect employers to community resources and connections and to workers, we are thinking about Americans with disabilities from day one. It's in the fiber of every part of the apprenticeship programs and technical assistance that we offer. Now here's the thing that we have to be honest about. Less than 1% of registered apprentices in America today have a disability and I know what you're thinking: That's a hard number to swallow. Certainly for me, it's an incredibly difficult number to say out loud, but we can either admire that problem and talk about it or we can see it as an opportunity. We can see it as an opportunity and here's why. An apprenticeship for an American with a disability allows an individual to start to build a career by building skills that are marketable and ready to be used in industries all across the country.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
But here's another thing. They can begin to learn what reasonable accommodations, what modifications and what help they might need to be successful in that job as they prepare for it. And I think that's an incredible opportunity. That's why we're committed to training employers, to workforce systems, to vocational rehabilitation programs, to help Americans with disabilities see that apprenticeships are not just a great option, but they might be the best option for many of us who want to develop skills that have the training and support from day on. And that should include open, honest conversations around the reasonable accommodations that we just talked about. For people with mental health diagnoses, they should see this as an excellent path to take their skills, their readiness and their eagerness to work and bring those conversations all together while earning a paycheck and working towards credentials and skills needed in their communities.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Speaking of apprenticeships and practical advice, we of course have a lot of legislators, legislative staff listening. And what kind of suggestions would you have for them if they'd like to move ahead with these kind of apprenticeship programs in their state, what are some tips you would give them?
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Well, the good news is that there are apprenticeship programs from coast to coast, all across our country and there are more and more each day so we're really encouraged by that. There are ways to expand that and I want to touch on that, but I'd be remiss if I didn't double down on making sure that Americans with disabilities who are on the economic sidelines, who are discouraged and disconnected from our nation's economy, here in Washington, D.C., they are front and center to our mind. We want for Americans with disabilities what we want for all Americans, which is the pursuit of the American dream. And so I want to actually challenge everyone who's listening today because I know that they're doing great work.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
They're increasing opportunities for apprenticeships. They're working with employers to have more registered apprenticeship programs in their states. I know many are looking at incentives and opportunities to work with employers to match them with potential apprentices. But here's my question, how engaged are the critical disability agencies in your state in those conversations and how are you highlighting in those moments apprentices and successful apprentices now in the workforce who have significant disabilities and can talk about their experiences in their programs? And here's what I would say. We know that in many States, they're having apprenticeship days or weeks and activities and they're bringing state lawmakers, agency leaders, employers, apprenticeship program leads and training providers and apprentices all together to talk about what's working and what's not. States are investing and they're making sure that they're investing in industries that continue to grow in their state and really build out great states all across the nation.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
But are you working with vocational rehabilitation or your state independent living council? Are you working to include your developmental disability council and working with other agencies throughout your state to make sure that your registered apprenticeship programs are thoughtfully recruiting and supporting Americans with disabilities? And so that's my question back to everybody today and sort of my challenge of as you're planning your events, going to apprenticeship.gov for ideas, resources, policy ideas, you'll see there that people with disabilities are front and center and I'm asking the states to think about it in the same way.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
I remember interviewing former Senator Tom Harkin a few years ago on the anniversary of the ADA, which of course he was instrumental in creating along with former, the first President Bush. And I remember thinking then, and I have to say, I still think now that we have not fulfilled the promise of that legislation yet. Assistant Secretary, I thank you so much for taking the time to do this and I want to ask you what else you'd like to share with our audience.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Yeah. Well, Ed, you made a really good point. We're coming up in just two months, we're going to celebrate the anniversary of the Americans with Disabilities Act and it is always an amazing time to celebrate the achievements and the value of every American, including Americans with disabilities. We at the Department of Labor, I think we do that every day. But as you said, we've got a country that is more accessible and more welcoming than ever before for Americans with disabilities. But as we look generation over generation and we see the incredible progress across our nation, we know we can see the work that is ahead and you're absolutely right that helping Americans with disabilities come off of the economic sidelines, get the education and training that they need to build careers of their dreams so that they can do what every other American is doing, say for a home down payment, plan for retirement, build flourishing families.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
We want that for every American and we're not going to stop until we continue to break down these barriers. And that's why these conversations are so much more than conversations. They're making sure that states have what they need, the resources, the solutions that they can move into practice tomorrow through the right partnerships, through the right activities, through the right priorities so that the Americans with disabilities in their states see themselves in their programs, see themselves in their workplaces and are contributing and being recognized for their values and their capabilities in our great workplaces. And yeah, we've got a tall order. We've got a tough task in front of us with folks like the ones listening today and all of the great Americans who are working every day to remove barriers, we'll continue this hard work ahead.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Assistant Secretary Hocker, thanks for sharing your expertise and perspectives on this important topic. Take care.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
I'll be right back after this brief message with Representative VanderWall from Michigan.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
When it comes to podcast, only one organization NCSL keeps a focus on the people, policy, and politics of state legislatures. Each episode of our podcast offer behind the scenes insights into the legislative process. First, the program Our American States provides in- depth discussions twice a month on key state policy issues shaping our nation or explore bipartisan dialogue with our special series Across the Aisle where diverse political perspectives converge to create constructive conversations in state legislative chambers. And for history buffs, we've also produced a six-part series called Building Democracy: The Story of State Legislatures. Listen to learn more about the creation and development of the first branch of government in the United States. Stay connected, stay informed. Subscribe to these programs now on your favorite podcast platform. Learn more at ncsl.org.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Representative, welcome to the podcast. Great to have you.
Speaker 4 (35:31):
Well, very, very honored to be on and nice to meet you for the first time, Ed, and look forward to our discussion today.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
We're doing this podcast talking about apprenticeships, but I think many of us, and I would include myself in that, we think of plumbers and carpenters and pipe fitters maybe when we think about apprenticeships, maybe auto mechanics, but a lot of us do not think about some of the other areas where apprenticeships might be useful. Now, you sponsored legislation that was enacted in Michigan to create student mental health apprenticeships and a training internship grant program. I wonder if you can just talk about why you were so interested in creating that, why that's an important issue for you.
Speaker 4 (36:13):
I think that mental health has been an area that it doesn't matter where you live. We have a pretty serious issue and we have a shortage. I think that too many times people that are trying to make a decision if they want to get into a field and really until you get your feet into the middle of it and your hands into the middle of it and your mind in the middle of it, you may have had a false thought process of what it really was. And what we really wanted to do was get people involved early, let them fall in love with helping people and really understanding the field and hopefully developing them at an early age that they would already start developing their career path and gearing through that with so many opportunities that we have nowadays with early college education, especially here in the state of Michigan.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Boy, I can't tell you how many podcasts I've done in the last several years where the issue of mental health and the issue of the shortage of people to help in that area come up. So boy, I think you're spot on. But tell me why apprenticeships as opposed to some other kind of program.
Speaker 4 (37:27):
I'm fortunate enough to chair health policy here in the state of Michigan. I did four years as chair of health policy when I was in the Senate and now I'm chairing it again in the House and what we've really seen is a huge shortage. It just gives a young person or somebody that's been in a field for a period of time an opportunity to learn and understand other than hitting a book and really getting that personal touch to understand what they're dealing with and in some cases really falling in love to find out that, you know what, I don't want to necessarily work with adults. I'd rather work with children or vice versa. I think the results and the long term fulfillment of job opportunity and sustainability of getting people to stay in the field once they've entered it because they've worked in apprenticeship early is going to reap real good rewards for all of us.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
So let me ask you about results. Has this been going on long enough? Do you feel that you're seeing the returns?
Speaker 4 (38:40):
We're having more and more retire out than we can fulfill right now. So every time we put somebody in to that field is just a huge win for everybody here in the state of Michigan or any of the compacts that we've worked on with other states once they get licensed and trained as being a professional. I think anytime we put one brand new person in right now, we're leaps and bounds above, but honestly, it's been such a struggle right now because mental health has become a very serious issue nationally and it's not just isolated to the state of Michigan and unfortunately it's a lot more prevalent now than it's ever been. We're excited about what we've seen. We're excited about everybody that's joined into this program. It's not been in long enough to see if they can ... Because the schooling isn't an easy, you just don't go two years, you have a bunch of times.
Speaker 4 (39:46):
So it's going to probably take a good eight to 10 years to really, really understand how well this program is doing and what it's providing for us here in the state and surrounding states.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
I think that's one of the great challenges of working in a legislature is you have to enact legislation that you know is needed, but it's very difficult to show the results right away. So I think you're absolutely right. A decade might be how long it takes to demonstrate that this is working.
Speaker 4 (40:18):
I think the other piece that happens, especially anytime we do anything when it comes to the medical side, is that we're a very impatient society. It doesn't matter who we are. We want to see instant results. Well, unfortunately, the average person that goes to college to be a doctor spends eight to 10 years before they're licensed. So we're looking at a lot of these folks that are joining into this. This could be their second career or this could be their first one and besides being a mom or a dad, they've decided to jump into this and it may take them a little longer than normal to get licensed, but you know what? They fell in love with it because of the opportunity and we want to be there to help fulfill their dream.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
Let me ask you about how you reach out to people who might be good for this kind of program. Are you going through employers, going through universities? What's that look like?
Speaker 4 (41:23):
Well, it really looks pretty wide open, but it starts early when young people show an interest and they're going off to college and they want to explore this and they meet with somebody that's going to help them choose their classes when they're getting ready to go to college. Let's face it, anybody that even remotely thinks about the medical field, they know that they have a long road in front because of the education process that goes through. We look for those people that have that desire to help others knowing that sometimes there's a lot of emotional baggage that comes into it with what they have to do. Those are the things that are tough today is that there's so many different aspects of mental health. We just want to give everyone that tool and that heads up and really kind of sell them on an opportunity to understand that it's not always going to be rosy, but when you can really truly help somebody in the long run, you've done really good.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
NCSL, of course, is always interested in bipartisanship and I wonder if you could talk a little bit about how you put together a coalition from both sides of the aisle to get this done. I ask this question to people frequently and one of the reasons is in the world we live in, everybody thinks that everything's partisan, but in fact, when you boil it down, most of it's not. So tell me how you went about this.
Speaker 4 (42:59):
It comes from who my dad is. My dad taught me as a young person that you're not always going to agree with everybody a hundred percent and today's world has become very political to a point where it's disheartening, but when it comes to health care, it should never be a partisan issue. It always should be bipartisan and we should really look at how we can move that agenda forward by making sure we achieve the goals that both sides really want. I've been very fortunate with the committee that I've been able to chair that we've been able to put the partisan shenanigans to the side and that was working one-on-one with a lot of the members from the opposite party and building a relationship that we trusted each other that they knew that the ultimate goal was that we are going to provide really good agenda results and really good processes for everybody to go through.
Speaker 4 (44:04):
And that's really how it is. We've got to redevelop trust with one another and that's what we've been able to do and even today in health policy, we've been able to do that and patience is the key. Again, you don't move legislation that's good legislation very quickly through a committee. It takes time and you got to work with both sides to make sure that everybody is on the same page.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Talking to your colleagues around the country, if they're interested in this apprenticeship model, are there other occupations, other areas you think where this can be used rather than the traditional ones we talked about at the beginning of the podcast?
Speaker 4 (44:47):
Well, I think there's so many ... I think it's always interesting because we've always gone to the trades to look at apprenticeship. It kind of goes back to the days and I am certain that you and I are not too many years apart in age, but when we grew up in our early days in high school, we had apprenticeships for almost every job and we've gotten away with that because of all these baggage we tie in under the term of education and we say, "You got to spend this many hours." Well, what we've done has done a great harm to I think the young people that probably many that have had a passion for something outside the career trades, somebody that could be in the mental health side or the doctor side or somebody that wants to work in some other profession. And I really believe we need to bring those co-op opportunities back so people can get that early hands on because today's world is many people get into it because they go to college and that's what they were sold to do and they get into it and they go, "Boy, this isn't what I wanted to do.
Speaker 4 (46:07):
" If we can get that done early, I think the long-term debt load to our young people that are going to school will be better. I think the employment opportunities will be better and the years of service that they provide will be better so that they don't get started in a job and then decide to quit because it wasn't what they wanted. I think all around it, we need to be open. I always use this diagram or this picture of the old grandfather clock and the pendulum swinging and then it goes really far to one side and then it comes back. I think we've really discovered that we've allowed some of the things or the decisions that we've made that pendulum swung too far in one direction and we left a lot of people off to the side and now we're bringing that back in again to really help fulfill some of these dreams that people have.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
Well, I think you're absolutely right that there's a lot of different ways to get post-secondary education. Many people have felt like there weren't enough alternatives to college. I think your point is also great to say you might not like that thing you thought was a good idea when you were 18 or 19, when you're 25 or 30. So maybe a little more experience in it upfront would be helpful. And Representative, thanks so much for telling us about the experience there in Michigan and how that's working out. Take care. Well,
Speaker 4 (47:39):
I appreciate the opportunity and again, appreciate the time and an opportunity to share.
Speaker 1 (47:52):
I've been speaking with Assistant Secretary Julie Hocker from the US Department of Labor and Representative Curtis Vanderwall of Michigan about mental health and behavioral health in the workplace and the role apprenticeships can play in addressing shortages in the mental health workforce. Thanks for listening. Search for NCSL podcasts wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast, our American states, dives into some of the most challenging public policy issues facing legislators, our occasional series across the aisle, feature stories of bipartisanship. Also, check out our special series, Building Democracy About the History of Legislatures.