This is our third podcast from NCSL’s Legislative Summit in Boston where the organization is celebrating its 50th anniversary. Joining today's show with some some international perspective are Mark Daly, the chair of the Irish Senate, and Ruth Bajada, the deputy chief of mission for the European Union delegation to the U.S. On Monday and Tuesday I spoke with current and incoming presidents and staff chairs for NCSL. You can check those out wherever you get your podcasts. Here’s today’s discussion, starting with Senator Daly.
This is our third podcast from NCSL’s Legislative Summit in Boston where the organization is celebrating its 50th anniversary.
Joining today's show with some some international perspective are Mark Daly, the chair of the Irish Senate, and Ruth Bajada, the deputy chief of mission for the European Union delegation to the U.S.
On Monday and Tuesday I spoke with current and incoming presidents and staff chairs for NCSL. You can check those out wherever you get your podcasts.
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Ed: Hello and welcome to “Our American States,” a podcast from the National Conference of State Legislatures. I’m your host, Ed Smith.
I’m podcasting from NCSL’s Legislative Summit in Boston where the organization is celebrating its 50th anniversary. I’m coming to you on this third day of the summit with some international perspective. Joining me on the podcast are Mark Daly, the chair of the Irish Senate, and Ruth Bajada, the deputy chief of mission for the European Union Delegation to the U.S.
On Monday and Tuesday, I spoke with the current and incoming presidents and staff chairs for NCSL. You can check those out wherever you get your podcasts. Here is today’s discussion starting with Senator Daly.
Senator, welcome to the podcast and welcome to Boston.
MD: Thanks so much for having me. It is great to be back in Boston which many people in Ireland would consider the torpedoed county of Ireland with so many Irish people having made it home down over the last centuries. Maybe two and a half centuries.
Ed: First, let me thank you for taking the time to talk with me here at NCSL’s Legislative Summit. I know you have forged close relationships with a lot of state lawmakers in the U.S. and I wonder if you can tell me why that’s important to you.
MD: Well, I suppose it stretches back to the Good Friday Peace Agreement in that you know peace in Ireland was made possible through the sustained success of support from U.S. presidential administrations, U.S. presidents, Congress, bipartisan support from members of the U.S. Senate and U.S. House of Representatives and also bipartisan support from U.S. state legislators. And the peace process is by definition a process and it requires ongoing support from the United States of America. There are people alive in Ireland today because the U.S. got involved in the peace process. A U.S. senator was sent over by President Clinton to be an envoy, an economic envoy. He had 700 days of failure and he had one day of success so that process that he started was supported by the Bush administration and all U.S. administrations ever since because we are still implementing the Good Friday Agreement. There is a full-time committee in the Irish parliament on the implementation of the Good Friday Agreement. And to tell you how important that work is, the interlocutor who is being appointed by the British and Irish governments on discussing the paramilitaries in Northern Ireland how to bring an end to paramilitarism in Northern Ireland is being appointed this week or possibly next week. And, you know, imagine we are nearly 30 years from the Good Friday Agreement and we are now trying to see how we can get rid of the para militaries to imagine the scale of that problem. Northern Ireland has a population of about 1.9 million people and the commissioners who have written reports on paramilitary activity in Northern Ireland and criminal gang activity and they are kind of interlinked because a lot of them are involved in the paramilitaries are involved in racketeering and extortion and drug dealing. There are an estimated 12,000 paramilitaries still in Northern Ireland. Only a few hundred active, but it is very easy and we have seen in the past when tensions rise in Northern Ireland particularly around election time that you would see a lot of paramilitary activity and people being sucked back in into the paramilitaries who have been inactive for a long time. But what we also see and as equally concerning is the agreement generation. Those who were born just in or around the time of the Good Friday Peace Agreement are being, to use a phrase from a context that we are well aware of, radicalized by paramilitaries and being sucked into that criminality and into that. So involving U.S. state legislators in the process of how do we work together to sustain the peace process while at the same time and part of that is creating education links and economic links between Ireland, north and south, the Republic of Ireland, the northern Ireland and U.S. states gives people a better understanding in those states on how they can be of assistance, but also on the economic end how Ireland is now the fifth largest investor in the United States of America. And therefore, we would like to see how we can work together to create job opportunities in U.S. states.
I was talking to an Irish company last week who are looking to invest a billion dollars over the next five years across the United States of America. It’s about glancing back and this the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence, which is next year and the beginning of the War of Independence here in Boston and in Massachusetts. We are glancing back. We are looking forward and that assistance from U.S. states will be invaluable over the years ahead.
Ed: I think that’s an interesting point about an ongoing process. I think many of us of a certain age particularly those of us of Irish heritage never thought the troubles would ever come to an end. It’s a good point though that it is a great achievement, but one that needs ongoing work. You mentioned relationships with U.S. presidents and I think it’s fair to say there’s some tension now between our federal government and European nations, including Ireland. Can you talk about the value of relationships with state lawmakers when things are tense with officials at the federal level?
TM: 5:55
MD: Well I think you know forging those relationships is huge and important because you can discuss them with people and talk about the challenges and bear in mind this is a dispute like all disputes they get resolved by discussion and seeing a pathway forward and seeing how we can work together, particularly with U.S. states on how their interest can be forged in the way ahead. You know because we see a lot of more U.S. states taking on issues that 10 years ago, they wouldn’t have taken on at all. And they are doing that in other areas including international relations. It was great to see over 20 countries here at the NCSL and more into the future forging those relationships with U.S. states and then you know understanding their concerns and their hopes and also now that Ireland is the largest English speaking country left in the European union after Britian has left the European union, Ireland is now a gate with Europe but also a bridge for the European union to the United States of America. Us having so much in terms of relationships across U.S. states at least here, but like anywhere I go in the United States of America, I meet people who have Irish heritage, are proud of their Irish heritage, but also want to be of assistance into the future.
Ed: Let me expand on that a little bit. As you alluded to, there are deep ties between our 2 countries about 10% of the people in the U.S. have Irish heritage, including myself. Why is that bond so important?
MD: Well, I suppose you know it’s important because in times of trouble, but also in times of celebration we come together to celebrate that link between our two republics. I was out in Lexington there on Sunday and I was noting that one of the street names is Harrington and that’s a very Irish name from my part of the world and two of the people who were killed that morning in Lexington 250 years ago were Irish and eight of those people who signed the Declaration of Independence were of Irish heritage. Even the guy who printed the Declaration of Independence was Irish and they were all facing high treason if they were killed or captured. Many of those who signed the Declaration of Independence suffered as a result of their belief in the idea that the people are sovereign. So, that shared a connection, particularly even on our own Declaration of Independence, the 1916 Proclamation, where it talks about only one country by name although in Ireland where it says suborned by or exiled children in American will tell you that deep connection that we have with the United States of America. And that goes true relationships between families and then down through the generations, I have many cousins here in the United States of America as do everybody in Ireland has cousins in the United States of America and we love them to visit. We want them to visit more, but diplomacy like politics like American football is a contact sport and you build relationships up by meeting people. You know discussing the things you agree on and discussing the things you don’t agree on and then through that building a commonality of areas that you can work together on and that is true of the current situation in terms of the disagreement between the EU and the U.S. which has hopefully now been resolved while they were still working out the details on that. But like these are temporary passes in what is in terms of Ireland and the United States an unbreakable bond between two republics.
Ed: You are pretty familiar with the U.S. legislatures and I wonder if there are things we do here, things you’ve observed about our legislature that are different from what you do in Ireland.
TM: 10:08
MD: If I was to be the representative, I’d say they are all underpaid and you know that’s the number one thing for the work that they do and the amount of hours they have to put in and then the campaigning that they have to do which can be you know expensive and then you know they are not getting the renumeration that they should I would argue if I was their trade union representative, I would be saying that they should be getting higher pay. And then you know, we all face the same common problems in terms of online abuse and things that have escalated in terms of protests. It wasn’t the case maybe 10 or 15 years ago. They have a considerable autonomy and yet you know while there are two parties, there are many fashions and you know all of that is pretty much familiar. But bear in mind like you know democracy is a new concept, not here in America with 250 years of it under its belt, but like there were only about a dozen countries in the world that have been continuous democracies for the last 100 years. United States and Ireland being among them so you know that’s only three or four generations of people who are you know utilizing the tools and the platform of democracy to agree and disagree to pass legislation and to make better lives for all of their communities so I mean in that we can learn a lot from each other on how you can do things better. And that’s why the American/Irish State Legislator’s Caucus and the National Conference of State Legislatures and all those bodies are very important because you know you meet people and they from that comes great ideas as to how you can work together across the Atlantic to build the bridge and the gateway that Ireland can be for the United States and the United States relationship with Ireland continues to be important for the peace process and state legislators while they like we all do we call it parish pom politics. You deal with the stuff that’s, you know, the potholes, the important stuff. The potholes and the housing issues and all of that, but then you know you have the broader and bigger issues in terms of how we work together in terms of creating a better future. And you know particularly with the challenges and I see this in Ireland with the U.S. and U.S. states particularly are ahead on this issue on artificial intelligence and have been forging legislation long before European countries have. So, there is a lot we can learn on that. I was in Rome not so recently earning the temporary title of favorite child award for my mother when I met the Pope and he blessed the rosary beads and then I give them to my mother so of the four children, I made child of the week for one week out of the last 52 years.
He in that discussion with an interfaith dialogue on with parliamentarians from around the world of the three items he discussed was artificial intelligence, which will tell you how big an issue they see in the world ahead and how big a challenge it is, opportunities certainly. But I think we are more afraid of it then hopeful of it because in the hands of bad actors, that has the potential to do a lot of harm so it’s the responsibility of legislators, state legislators, national legislators, everybody to try and put in the guardrails that hasn’t happened in other areas in terms of making sure that it works for the best outcomes of humanity and makes everyone’s life better. But it is it’s like controlling a nuclear explosion. You try to contain it without understanding its full force and what it could or could not do and that’s why everybody including the Vatican is concerned about it and rightly concerned because there are a lot of bad people who want to use it and not for good outcomes. So that’s why you know events like this and NCSL, who I know work very hard on the issue in relation to making sure that there was the power for states to do what they felt was in the best interest of their constituents, way above and beyond the interest of corporations ,and you know ultimately that’s probably that is the approach we need to take in relation to a lot these issues that it’s the citizen must remain sovereign and the legislators need to act in the best interests of them because this is a huge opportunity for the world certainly. But certainly, a ferocious challenge on how we can tackle it into the future so that’s why the NCSL and others you know taking a lead on many of these areas. And us in Europe learning from what state legislators are doing and the information being shared by NCSL is a huge benefit to everybody.
Ed: Well senator, I think that’s a great place to wrap up. Thanks for your time and for your involvement in NCSL and state legislatures. Have a good day and take care.
MD: Thank you very much.
Ed: I’ll be right back after this short break with Deputy Ambassador Bajada.
TM: 15:13
Deputy Ambassador, welcome to the podcast.
RB: Thank you for having me.
Ed: I wonder if you might start by telling us about the mission of the EU delegation to the United States. Frankly, I think a lot of people maybe aren’t very aware of that. Tell us basically what the EU delegation does and what you do in your role.
RB: Sure. Thanks a lot. Well, I came to the NCSL to escape the work that we do in Washington, but certainly with pleasure I’ll give you a bit of an explanation of what we do. So first of all, the EU delegation represents the European Union. And this would be the administration. This would be the senators and this would be the congressmen and the House and the U.S. institutions overall. You know, governors in different states, state legislators so are first in their face let’s say. And we also are there to collect information. Get a sense of what is happening in the United States and also, we report back to Brussels, to headquarters, to give them some policy advice and suggestions of what you know how we can take this relationship forward.
The second big job that we do is EU coordination. We have 27 member states in the EU at the moment. All are represented in the United States. All feel that they have the most important relationship with the United States. Why. Because this relationship spans across you know all member states bring here and the ties. You know, many of our member states have, you know, huge ties including people to be in families across the U.S. So, we do a lot of coordination to make sure that we represent a common approach and a common view.
And the third big part of the job is extending our relations as much as possible. So, one of the reasons we are here is to meet state legislators to speak about their relationship, what the EU can bring and also the United States could bring to Europe. I was last week also at the NGA in Colorado Springs. We continue to work across with think tankers, with culture representatives. We believe that this relationship is beyond trade, beyond politics and it’s the ties that make this relationship stronger.
Ed: Let me ask you about trade. To put it mildly, things are a little tense at the moment between the U.S. and most of its trading partners and of course we know there’s lots of talks and deals being made and negotiations. What I’m wondering about is as you talk to state legislators here at NCSL’s summit, how do you talk about it? How do you kind of explain the EU perspective on this?
TM: 19:20
RB: Tensions are not conducive to positive relations and this is why I think even before and already from November onwards and we started you know we wanted to make sure to have the best possible relationship with, we at the EU, and the best possible relationship with this administration and with President Trump and we do have a deal as of Sunday of last week. And now it is about to be the implementation of that deal. So, I think it’s we speak to the state legislators here at NCSL and by making sure that we go beyond the tensions and beyond. And I’m sure that Europe is open for business. Only about the trade negotiations, we’ve had about 10 visits from our leadership in Brussels coming to Washington negotiating the different parts of the deal to arrive to where we are today. And what we say to state legislators is that the EU is really the biggest partner for the United States. It was said by President Trump himself actually that this was one of the most coveted agreements that he wanted to have. Therefore, we want to show that look, the EU and U.S. are big helmets, big ships. You know there will always be big competition. There will always be tensions, but it is about to sink together and working it out.
Ed: So now that we have seemingly a trade deal and we know that things are volatile even when seemingly an agreement has been reached, but assuming that we do have a trade deal, what’s the work now?What’s the role of the EU delegation in going forward with this?
RB: As you know, you know we have a trade deal now, but trade deals are about implementation and so this is what we have been and throughout the negotiations were of course very much working closely with the member states, working closely with business. So, we did not arrive to, for instance, the numbers of investments that the European Union will be making in the United States or how much strategy advise will make in the United States out of nowhere. And so, this has been very detailed work that the European Commission has done and with different our member states, with the different companies. Also knowing what we have been knowing what this relationship has given over the years and that’s why we arrived and how we arrived to these numbers. So, this is about now working with first of all with the United States to finalize the deal. There are still a number of open issues. You know there will be a number of scenarios that where we will have zero for zero in terms of tariffs so it’s about outlining those. And then it is about working out how we are going to do and how we see these investments in Europe. And also at the same time, part of this deal, for this deal to also be successful, there needs to be a lot of internal work within the EU itself and in terms of, you know, we are going through a process of simplification of legislation and we need to make our single market much stronger. We also have a lot of work in term of security and defense to do and in terms of securing our continent which by the way will also mean that we will opportunities to work with the United States as well. So, I think this is what we will see us doing next. The most important part of this deal, which I forgot to mention earlier, was about stability. I think as we mentioned member states, companies, investors do not like instability. So, I think the first thing that you know the EU was looking for and with President Trump and with his administration to get this relationship to a stable space and then work on that to address a number of issues that we have on both sides. But also find ways how to strengthen the EU itself to become or to be even a bigger and stronger partner to the United States.
TM: 23:58
Ed: Let me ask you as we wrap up here, of course we are here in Boston at the NCSL meeting with legislators from all over the country. How does this situation, the trade situation whatnot affect how the EU interacts with individual states when you talk to people from Texas or New York or Illinois. What kind of conversations are those and does it strengthen your relationships with the individual states, or does it make them more challenging?
RB: When I took up this job about six months ago, one of the first things that I learned coming into the job is that actually the EU is either the first, second or third investor in all the states across the United States. Well actually to be correct in 47 of the 50 states. So, except for the states that are closer to Canada or to Mexico. You would be surprised for instance and we’ve been working on this to increase it so. For instance, at the moment in Louisiana, we have just announced only in the last three months big German and Italian investments in LNG. We have in Texas, of course, we have LNG products, but we also have huge investments in wind energy for instance. In Massachusetts as I was preparing to come here, we’ve had, you know, companies here investing in Europe and exporting to Europe, $10 billion last year, and we’ve had $9 billion of investments so we are talking of goods, money and a good money across the United States. I think figures vary year in and year out, but I think overall when you count smaller businesses that are involved and I think we have around 60 million people employed on both sides of the Atlantic as a result of these business relationships. So, you know 60 million people across the states in the United States and in the EU is not little and it is not to be taken for granted. So, I think this is you know the opening pitch and with different states. And also, the relationship is not only about business. It’s also about it goes further so the EU is about values. It’s about history. It’s about culture so we bring you know beyond the trade and investments. We bring all this and so I think we have quite a solid opening lines with the state legislators and from our side, I think all can come that we will want to build on this and further and further strengthening.
Ed: Well deputy ambassador, thank you so much for taking the time to give us this perspective. I think it will be informative to a lot of people who are not that familiar with the EU delegation and I thank you for it. Take care.
RB: Thank you very much and it was a real pleasure.
Ed: I’ve been talking with Irish Senator Mark Daly and Deputy Ambassador Ruth Bajada about relationships between EU nations and the states. Thanks for listening.
You can check out all the podcasts from the National Conference of State Legislatures by searching for NCSL podcasts wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast “Our American States” dives into some of the most challenging public policy issues facing legislators. On “Across the Aisle” host Kelley Griffin tells stories of bipartisanship. Also check out our special series “Building Democracy” on the history of legislatures.