On this episode, our two guests discussed how they used a mentor-mentee relationship to prepare for a job transition. Bernadette “Bernie” McNulty is the retired chief assistant secretary in the California Senate Heshani Wijemanne is the current chief assistant secretary in the Senate.
Institutional knowledge among legislative staff is a core element to maintaining continuity in legislatures around the country. But passing on that knowledge has become challenging as baby boomers retire and younger staff take on those roles.
On this episode, our two guests discussed how they used a mentor-mentee relationship to prepare for a job transition. Bernadette “Bernie” McNulty is the retired chief assistant secretary in the California Senate. Heshani Wijemanne is the current chief assistant secretary in the Senate.
McNulty explained that, as a manager, she had a critical responsibility to not only find someone to take on her job but to be sure that person was as ready as possible for the challenges ahead. For her part, Wijemanne said learning and absorbing everything she could from McNulty was irreplaceable in preparing herself.
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ES: Hello and welcome to “Our American States,” a podcast from the National Conference of State Legislatures. I’m your host, Ed Smith.
BM: “You can't just drop somebody into a position like that and let them go. They have to be oriented and familiarized.”
ES: That was Bernadette “Bernie” McNulty, the retired chief assistant secretary in the California Senate and one my guests on this podcast. She’s joined by Heshani Wijemanne, the current chief assistant secretary in the Senate.
They joined me to discuss how they used a mentor-mentee relationship over several years to prepare Wijemanne to take over McNulty’s role in the chamber.
Institutional knowledge among legislative staff is a core element to maintaining continuity in legislatures around the country. But passing on that knowledge has become challenging as baby boomers retire and younger staff take on those roles.
McNulty and Wijemanne discussed how they worked together to prepare for the transition. McNulty explained that, as a manager, she had a critical responsibility to not only find someone to take on her job but to be sure that person was as ready as possible for the challenges ahead. For her part, Wijemanne said learning and absorbing everything she could from McNulty was irreplaceable in preparing herself.
Here's our discussion.
ES: 1 (00:03):
Bernie, Heshani, welcome to the podcast.
BM: 2 (00:07):
Ed, it's a pleasure. Thank you so much for inviting me to this forum.
HW: 3 (00:11):
Thank you, Ed. It's an honor to be here. Thank you for having both of us.
ES: (00:16):
So, we're talking today about the mentor mentee relationship that you two had in the California Senate, and we hope your experience might be helpful to staff in other states who might want to do something similar. But first, why don't you tell us how you met and how you worked together and how long you worked together. And Bernie, why don't you go first?
BM: (00:35):
Thank you, ed. In 2016, we needed a chief assistant in engrossing and enrolling clerk. We interviewed quite a few people and Heshani was one of those candidates that we interviewed, and she did very well. We did a second interview. She was just an excellent candidate, and we hired her and then she was in that position until she became the engrossing and enrolling clerk a couple of years later managing the department. And then in December 2021, she was transitioned over to the desk, and we've been working together for nine years.
ES: (01:17):
And Heshani, how did it work out from your perspective?
HW: (01:21):
So, I think I was on the East Coast for some time before moving back to my home state of California, and I was looking for work in public service. Applying for the engrossing and enrolling office I thought was an interesting way of getting into the capitol building. I have to say, when I went into that interview with Bernie and my predecessor, Sandy, both of my predecessors now, it was an interesting experiencing going in and not exactly knowing what you were interviewing for. I mean, you have an idea of what it is from the website and doing some research, but Bernie did a very good job of informing me of what I was getting myself into. And she continued to do so during the second interview. And I remember really admiring her and her passion during that interview for what she did. And I think that had a little bit to do about why I ended up being so excited moving into that role.
ES: (02:15):
And Bernie, was there a specific point or was it built into the process for you to become the mentor and take on that role with Heshani?
BM: (02:24):
Well, at first, I'd like, before I answer that question personally as a manager, and I own that position at the time when I was the manager and leader of the Senate desk and the whole operation of the desk and everything that it encompasses. I believe as a manager, it is your responsibility to assess your people, know what they're good at, their weaknesses, their strengths. Understand that, know where you can help them and put the people in the right place is the right positions. And I do that, and I was doing that all the time, and Heshani was one of those people I was evaluating and watching amongst all the rest of the staff. So, in 17-18 session, I spoke with the secretary because I already have my succession planning thoughts in my head because I'm an old lady and I know I'm going to retire here in the next several years.
(03:23):
And in my opinion, you can't just drop somebody into a position like that and let them go. They have to be oriented and familiarized. So, I spoke with the secretary. The secretary was on board with my idea about succession planning. Once the secretary gave me the, okay, I invited Heshani to go to lunch with me. We had lunch together. I asked her if she would be interested in the position I held, and she said yes. And once that was confirmed by both of them, I needed the buy-in from both of them. That's when the process started. But it took months because you have to remember, she's also going to manage engrossing and enrolling. So, our mentor mentee type relationship is already beginning where she's the manager of engrossing and enrolling. But I oversee engrossing and enrolling along with the desk, but at the same time, the transition for her to come to the desk and start familiarizing and getting her face out there to the members doesn't begin right away. It takes months. Okay. So eventually we started her, and this is months later, we started her as the reading clerk because I thought the reading clerk position would be the best way, number one, to get her out there and to familiarize her and orient her in the processes that we had at managing the desk.
ES: (05:03):
So, Bernie, did you have a mentor when you went into the legislature?
BM: (05:08):
Ed, I had several mentors throughout various stages of my career. I started my legislative career in 1997 when I interned with the chief clerk's office, so of course the chief clerk, Dotson Wilson was a mentor of mine. His assistant, Larry Merman was a tremendous mentor of mine. We had a close relationship because we were vets, and so he understood the military jargon as I did, and he used it a lot. He used to kid me about all that. I was still in the military at the time as a reservist when I was interning, when I was hired by the Senate in 1998 as an entry level position mending clerk, which I did as an intern. I had several mentors again in different stages. My biggest mentor was Gregory Schmidt, the secretary of the Senate at the time. Again, I can't name all my mentors, but I had many throughout my career. But Greg Schmidt, Steven Hummel, John Van, David Neal, and Walter Little come to mind, and they were all very good mentors of mine, and I have so many others including within ASLCS, so I've been very fortunate in that respect.
ES: (06:25):
Well, you also have a very good memory, Bernie, I must say far better than mine. Heshani, let me ask you, how has this mentor situation affected your career so far in the legislature?
HW: (06:39):
That's a very good question. I don't know that I would have the career or be in the position I am in without the mentorship from Bernie. When it began, it was almost like I didn't know it was happening. I remember early on, Bernie looping me in and getting me involved with her work with ASLCS, with Mason's manual, with trying to cross train me with things that they were doing at the desk, she was always very inclusive between the two offices and making sure that we had a grasp in what we were doing with E&E in relation to the desk. She never shied away from questions. She encouraged it. She had a very open-door policy, and I think that helped blossom the mentor mentee relationship. Early on in my career with the legislature, I don't know how often it is that you get to work so long alongside the person that you are ultimately going to replace.
(07:36):
Bernie is such an integral part. She was, and still is, quite honestly, such an integral part of the California state Senate and its institution, and to have learned from her, observed her in some of the stickiest situations I've ever observed on the floor. I don't think you can compare that to any other book learned experience that I could have gained reading the rules and so forth. There's only so much you can do by reading and taking notes and playing by the book. But watching Bernie in action, it's been incredibly impactful on my career, and I'm very lucky to have had that experience with her and that time with her.
ES: (08:15):
Bernie, is mentorship part of the culture of the California Senate or is this sort of, some people do it, some people don't kind of thing,
BM: (08:24):
And the legislature, it's strange. It's not like a military organization or a corporation or anything like that, and no, there's no written mentorship, mentee type policy, written managers or different paradigms. No, it isn't there. I took it personally upon myself because of my own experiences, and I didn't want the staff that I handed over the job to experience what I did when I came into the position. I felt like I made a lot of very good changes for that operation. No, I didn't see that. I'm not putting a negative slant on anything by saying that the legislature is unique, people come and go. They can be there today, but tomorrow they're not. They could have went to an agency, they got a better offer, whatever it may be. It doesn't mean that the next person, the assistant is going to take over for the principal. It doesn't work that way. I was just very fortunate to have the opportunity and to reach out to my boss and say, do I have a plan for you? Do I have a deal for you?
ES: (09:49):
Let me ask you both. If there were particular challenges or obstacles to overcome in the mentor relationship, and Bernie, why don't you go first?
BM: (10:00):
And I wouldn't call it a challenge or an obstacle. I don't want to use those terms. As a mentor, you want to share your knowledge, your experience, and your rationale. I was fortunate to have the time that I had with Heshani, and I did that on purpose because I knew it would take years. But with that said, the person that you are trying to share all of this with and teach, they're their own individual. They have their own ways of thought, and so you have to let that be, teach them, let them absorb it. Then they're going to mull it around in their heads and they're going to say, well, I'm going to do it this way. And what is unique, I think with Heshani and myself, she's a millennial. I'm a boomer, I'm a vet military. You're going to do it because I said you, that kind of thing.
(11:00):
But it doesn't work that way. And then what I love about the youth is they have such great talent, great ideas, and sometimes I would turn around and say, damn, that's a good idea. Why didn't I think of that? Those kinds of things. But what's most difficult is to convince them to take it and own it. You're not me. You're you, and I want you to be you and don't try to be me after I give you all this knowledge. I want you to take it, run with it, own it, and leave me in the dust.
ES: (11:44):
I think that's a really, really good way of describing it. I've been in your position myself and the urge to have people do things just the way you did them is pretty strong, and you have to overcome that a little bit, I think.
BM: (11:59):
Yeah, that's the difficulty.
ES: (12:02):
Heshani, how about for you? Challenges, obstacles, whatever. In the mentor mentee relationship,
HW: (12:10):
It's really nice to, just hearing what Bernie said just got me in the heartstrings. I think the challenge is, I mean, like I said earlier, Bernie, Bernadette McNulty, she's made an impact on the institution and to go in or to even be prepared by her to replace her one day has been quite a feat. It's intimidating to people say, fill those shoes. I like to tell people, that is not what I'm going to do. Like at Bernie insinuated, there are different shoes. We, Bernie knew very well when she started getting me ready to take on her role that we are night and day. We're very different people, and I love hearing her say, I loved what she just said. It's very accurate. I think that had been and still continues to be a challenge in the sense that I'm not Bernie. I'm a very different person.
(13:12):
I make decisions a different way, interact with people a different way. Yet I think that having established that mentor mentee relationship, Bernie is always in the back of my head, what would Bernie do? How would Bernie approach this? I have the value of that perspective and that knowledge. I have Bernie on my phone. I will call her and text her in times of where I need to talk something out and mull something. I definitely think that I have adopted a lot of her best practices and that will never change, but Bernie and I definitely have differences in how we handle things. I think that that again, has been a challenge just stepping into this new role. I think for others as well, to see that we are different people and we handle things a little differently. I do think another part of our mentor mentee relationship that was challenging, but we persevered observing her during unique times.
(14:12):
We spent a lot more of our time together during the pandemic when things had changed. But to see her adaptability and her flexibility in times where we needed to be like that made a real impact on me as well. And in general, the legislative environment is ever changing, so it was a very good example, even though it wasn't the typical traditional, conventional legislative years that we went through. I learned a lot from that, but I definitely found it challenging not to have that usual experience. And then obviously, I also went on maternity leave during the end of Bernie's time with the Senate, and that was a little challenging as well to not be around her every single second of that. Last year she was with the Senate. To this day, our relationship continues. She is not just a mentor now, but a friend.
ES: (15:01):
Heshani, is there a specific instance, a situation where you can say, yeah, this really helped me deal with this situation because I'd had Bernie as my mentor?
HW: (15:13):
Yes, there's so many of those. I think in working with staff, Bernie's always created a very nurturing environment for staff to come and learn about the legislative process. With us, we're obviously, we're with the institution, we stay throughout the years. We're always there, but staff, they come and they go with members with term limits. There's a lot of younger people in the building. Something that Bernie was always adamant was about was to be that friendly person at the desk, to be the person that they can ask their questions and direct them to the right resource and to be helpful, help them succeed. I think that that has definitely been something that I've continued to carry on for Bernie in her absence and communication. I think making sure that you constantly communicating with our counterparts in the assembly, maintaining those good relationships, making sure that information is being shared when appropriate with other offices and making sure that they know what they're doing is improper within the rules.
ES: (16:21):
Bernie, let me ask you, as you pointed out, it's not as though there was a formal program here. Do you think this sort of mentorship thing, obviously from what you've both said, it sounds like it was successful in your case, do you really think it's sort of on managers in legislatures to take it on themselves to identify this rather than try and put a formal program together?
BM: (16:42):
Absolutely. As a manager, and I've been through a lot of management classes in my lifetime, it is your responsibility to grow your junior staff as a manager. If you want to be a manager just for the title and the money and the whatever, that, that's a bad on you and my opinion, again, this is my opinion, but I've been a successful manager for a long time, and absolutely you have to have the mentorship attributes and you have to follow through with them. That is, especially the youth of today, millennials on up. They want to be engaged. They want to know why, because they're going to come up with new ways on how to do something and it's going to be better or maybe it won't be, but you can have that conversation. But they want the feedback on themselves, on their performance, and they want to learn how to do something and how to run the operation because they want to be effective, that they're not lifers.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
They're not going to be there for 20 years. They're going to be there for five or six, and they're going to move on. If you can get six years or five years out of 'em nowadays, you're doing well, you're doing really well. In order for them to grow, you have to share, you have to give them feedback. You have to teach 'em the nuances, whether it's being on the floor during a session with the members or whether it's committee process. You have to teach 'em best practices and communication, lots of questions, why and explain and provide them feedback, whether it's good or bad. I think as a manager, it's on you to do that, to help them to be successful, and then you are successful. When they're successful, you are successful and that's what's so important. And then everybody's happy because everything's a well-oiled machine.
ES: (18:48):
Well, to wrap this up, let me ask both of you, what single piece of advice would you give someone who's going into either a mentor or mentee role in this sort of situation? Is there, would the perspective that you have, what would you offer that Heshani? What would your advice be?
HW: (19:09):
Learn everything you can from that person. There is a reason that they're there. There is a reason that they are your mentor. Ask questions, observe them. And there's nothing wrong with asking why is this what we do? Asking the history behind something, anything that your mentor can offer, anything Bernie offered. I absorbed. I listened to that piece of advice. I respected that piece of advice. Even now, if there's a question about any process that we have, there's a reason Bernie did it, right? So, I don't take that lightly when something may have been maybe called and questioned. But I think if you're lucky enough to have someone that is willing to serve as your mentor, you make sure that you get everything you can from them, because that's a real privilege. And unlike Bernie, I don't know that I've had many mentors in life, not many that I can point to. And to have said that Bernadette McNulty was my mentor is a real honor. So, thank you, Bernie.
ES: (20:18):
And Bernie, same question. What parting advice would you give
BM: (20:24):
Ed, It's not going to be singular. I have quite a few points here. Be honest with each other. Have those candid conversations on the expectations of each other. Check in frequently to make sure the process is going well or whether it is not. Keep things professional and don't take things personally. And lastly, make sure you allow for enough time to train, learn, absorb, and adjust.
ES: (20:53):
Well, that sounds like wonderful advice and thank you to both of you for taking the time to do this. I think this will be really helpful for legislative staff and other legislatures and maybe give them an idea or two. Take care.
BM: (21:06):
Thank you, ed.
HW: (21:08):
Thank you so much, Ed.