On this episode, we talk with Carly Roszkowski, vice president of financial resilience programming at AARP, who discussed why the over-50 crowd is such a critical piece of today’s workforce.
On this episode, we talk with Carly Roszkowski, vice president of financial resilience programming at AARP. She joined the podcast on the sidelines of NCSL's Legislative Summit in Boston in August where she was appearing on a panel called “Unretirement: Rethinking Work in the Age of Longevity.”
She explained how demographic trends mean the lion's share of the workforce growth is among the over-50 crowd, and in a related trend, that more than a fifth of retirees are working full or part-time jobs. Roszkowski also discussed the inherent bias in many automated systems that screen job applicants. The companies she talks with, however, are eager to try to eliminate that bias because they value keeping and attracting older workers.
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ES: (00:00):
Hello and welcome to our American States, a podcast from the National Conference of State Legislatures. I'm your host, Ed Smith.
CR: We have seen the labor force grow 21% in the last 25 or so years, and 93% of that growth is coming from the 50 plus workforce
That was Carly Roszkowski, vice president of financial resilience programming at AARP and my guest on this podcast.
I talked with Roszkowski on the sidelines of NCSL's Legislative Summit in Boston in August where she was appearing on a panel called “Unretirement: Rethinking Work in the Age of Longevity.”
She explained how demographic trends mean the lion's share of the workforce growth is among the over-50 crowd, and in a related trend, that more than a fifth of retirees are working full or part-time jobs. Roszkowski also discussed the inherent bias in many automated systems that screen job applicants. The companies she talks with, however, are eager to try to eliminate that bias because they value keeping and attracting older workers.
Here's our discussion.
Carly, great to have you on the podcast.
ES: (01:04):
Thanks so much, Ed. Happy to be here.
ES: (01:07):
So, I'm really excited to talk to you about this topic. Older people are involved in the job market in a lot of different ways, and we're going to talk about the value of that group of workers, some of the barriers that they face. But first, why don't you give us an overview of that over-50 workforce.
CR: (01:25):
Sure. We're looking at today a tight labor market with historically low unemployment rate. That has been creeping up a little bit over the last few months. We're at about 4.2%, but over half the labor market, 52% is 40 and older. You have five generations in the workforce today. Millennials in a few years will be turning 50 and Gen alpha is about five to seven years from the workforce.
ES: (02:00):
One stat that you pointed out in your presentation is that the work labor force grew by 21% in the last 25 years, and workers over 50 accounted for the lion's share of that. Can you talk a little bit about the demographic trends for why that's happening. Certainly baby boomers retiring, but maybe staying in the workforce and I guess the whole country's getting a little bit older, but run that down for us.
CR: (02:25):
Yeah, so we have seen the labor force grow, as you mentioned, 21% in the last 25 or so years, and 93% of that growth is coming from the 50 plus workforce. The 50 plus workforce grew by 89% while those 50 and younger grew by only 2%. And as you mentioned, it's predominantly driven by the baby boomers aging, but also they're working longer, people are living longer, staying healthier longer. They want to continue to work, they have more to give, they want to continue to learn. And so we're seeing this huge shift in the workforce and not only is the workforce aging, but it's also shrinking. The younger generations that are coming into the workforce are smaller than the baby boomer generation. They're smaller than the millennial generation, which is a huge generation and luckily because older workers are working longer or wanting to work longer, it's keeping unemployment low, but we are seeing approximately 10,000 workers retire each day. It's more people exiting the workforce than entering.
ES: (03:50):
I think those stats are kind of mind blowing, to tell you the truth. When I first read some of this, I had to go back and look at it again because it just seems so completely out of kilter. With those older workers, certainly a large portion of them perceive that they're discriminated against. I mean, it's always hard to say when you survey, there's a perception situation, but 64% have seen or experienced discrimination. And I wonder, this is pretty recent data, if I recall correctly, do you think the situation's getting better or is it getting worse or sort of static?
CR: (04:28):
During the pandemic, we actually saw age discrimination numbers go up to 78%, and that's for people 40 and older, either seeing or experiencing age discrimination in the workplace was at 78%. Thankfully since then, it's held steady and has come down to about 64%. But what's also troubling is that 90% of older workers say it's common that they're seeing it within their own workplaces or to others around them or to them themselves, and they're seeing it at different stages. They might see it in the hiring and recruiting process where they're overlooked for jobs due to their age. They might be seeing it while they're at work and in their own job where they're being passed over for promotions or upskilling or reskilling opportunities or leadership positions. Thankfully, it came down from those high pandemic levels, but it's still the highest bias or discrimination that we see today in the workplace.
ES: (05:38):
You pointed out that we now have five generations in the workforce, and I wonder if you can talk about what that means. What are the ramifications of that number of generations working?
CR: (05:51):
Well with five generations in the workforce, we do see a lot of positives. Having mixed age teams and multi-generational workforces, we see increased creativity and increased innovation and increased critical thinking when you have a diverse set of people around the table, like with any form of diversity. But it also presents challenges that we haven't seen historically. Predominantly these challenges fall on middle management. You have managers who might be managing people who are younger than them and older than them, different communication styles, different professionalism or expectations of how you conduct yourself in a professional setting, different expectations of work-life balance or flexibility. And so we're having to educate employers and managers and HR executives and recruiters on the benefits of a multi-generational workforce or mixed age teams, but then how we can help their managers or their CEOs make sure that they are having benefits that each generation or each employee might be relevant for them and where they are in their career, which runs the gamut with having so many diverse generations within the workforce.
ES: (07:24):
So I've done a number of podcasts with legislative staff where we talked about a number of these things. One very important one is institutional knowledge, and this is true really in all legislatures because members by and large come and go. It's particularly acute in term-limited states, but really in all legislatures, a lot of people come and go, but traditionally legislative staff has been the institutional knowledge. They've been the ones who know what happened 25 years ago and can offer suggestions to a legislator about, well, we did it this way. Maybe you might want to look back at that and see what the experience was. You talk about this transfer of institutional knowledge and I wonder if you could go into that a little bit and why it's so important. And are there things that institutions, companies, what have you can do to encourage that so that people don't, and people don't feel like they're being kicked out because they're being asked to share this knowledge, but nonetheless can go ahead and pass that on?
CR: (08:29):
There is tremendous value in having historical knowledge or even historical knowledge of your industry and your trade, even if it was at a different organization. And the value that older workers can bring with that historical knowledge to mentor younger workers, to teach them, to show them how it's been done or what's worked and what hasn't is of tremendous value. Now, we also talk a lot about reverse mentorship and how it can work both ways with changing technology and the pace at which technology is changing. Younger workers can come in and find new ways of doing things and new solutions, but having that historical context of maybe what has worked in the past or what hasn't and being able to share it and use it to continue to be more efficient, to move the work forward to be more productive is invaluable. And we see it predominantly with older workers due to older workers having a tendency to stay longer at organizations.
CR: (09:46):
Right? The research shows that they have longer tenure at organizations. And what we also see is that a few years ago, Mercer did some research where there is correlation between longer tenures at an organization and the bottom line. So another positive piece that an older worker can bring to an organization is they're going to stay potentially longer. They're going to absorb more of that knowledge, more of that organization's culture, history, experiences, and it's going to impact positively to that organization's bottom line. And they've also seen that when you have those older workers who have stayed at an organization longer and they're teaching younger and mentoring younger workers, sometimes that lower turnover propensity of older workers stabilizes these teams and these units and contributes to having younger workers potentially stay longer because they're learning and they're growing and they're feeling a part of the culture. It's a huge part of how organizations can be successful and can embrace having multiple generations.
ES: (11:05):
Let me ask you about another aspect of technology, and that's the use of digital tools to screen resumes, LinkedIn, some of these things that I think you've suggested in some ways these can be discriminating against older workers. And can you talk a little bit about that? And I found this a very, very interesting aspect of the presentation, some presentations you've made because frankly it never even occurred to me. So talk a little bit about that.
CR: (11:36):
In some of the applicant tracking systems or HR platforms that companies are using today, it's enabled them to be more efficient to get through hundreds of resumes. Unfortunately, sometimes the models that these applicant tracking systems based on have inherent bias within them, and a lot of it can be age bias without even knowing. And so you're immediately cutting out a potential candidate or hundreds of potential candidates due to a technological model that has been created that has inherent bias sort of built within it. And so we talk a lot about making sure if you're using this technology in order to, because I understand right, some of these job openings are getting hundreds and hundreds of candidates, and for one person, if you have one recruiter or one HR staff that's going through them, it becomes impossible to get through everything. But if the models are built on a bias that's already instilled in it, you're missing out on potentially good candidates that could bring a ton of experience and knowledge to your organization.
CR: (12:52):
So we work and educate employees or older workers, job seekers on how to create a resume or to do a job search where you have to get through those applicant tracking systems. We talk about even though you have 30 years of work experience, keep your resume to two pages, have it just your relevant most recent experience, take off the graduation rate the dates. If you don't want to talk about when you got your degree, if it's not relevant because you've been doing skills recently that are relevant to the job you're applying for, we talk about making sure your resume has keywords from these job postings because that's what these technology applicant systems are doing. They're screening or scanning for those keywords. And so if you're putting the exact verbiage from those job descriptions in your resume, you're more likely to get through that initial pass.
ES: (13:53):
Okay. Well, I'm going to take that 1975 college graduation date off my resume. Carly, thank you. Thank you for that tip, street address, my landline. But on a serious note, we talked a little bit offline about AI, and one of the problems that's come up with AI and large language models generally is that they're trained on humans and humans, as we know, do have a lot of these biases. So that's going to be a challenging thing, I think, to overcome. Let me ask you about another challenging thing to overcome and that you've talked about in your presentation. It's the myths about older workers. They know nothing about technology, they're going to be slower and so on and so forth, not necessarily true. And I think you laid out some interesting stats about that. Maybe you can share some of those with listeners.
CR: (14:49):
Yes, that older workers have a growth mindset, which means they want to continue to learn. They want to continue to be challenged when given the opportunity they want to upskill when given training opportunities within their organization. They want to learn new technologies. We also talk a lot about the myth around older workers just wanting to retire or just hanging on for one more year because they're going to retire again. Older workers tend to stay at organizations longer. If you invest in let's say a worker or a candidate who's 55 years old, they might have 20 years of work left for them, both because they want to and they can, but also they might need to financially or for avoiding social isolation. Breaking down these stereotypes and these myths through research, through education that we do both to employers and to job seekers themselves is huge and needs to continue to happen as society has unfortunately put these stereotypes on older workers that just aren't true, that we're not seeing. 89% of our older workers from our research want to make sure that when they're accepting a new job, they have the opportunity to use their skills and talents and continue to grow. 79% seek out opportunities to learn new skills, and 65% say that there's still a lot that they plan to accomplish in their work or career.
ES: (16:33):
So you do offer advice to companies about how to create a situation where they're taking the ageism out of the hiring process. What kind of suggestions do you give them?
CR: (16:47):
When we talk to employers, we educate them on a few different aspects of that hiring and recruiting process. We have them take a look at their job descriptions. Are there any words that might immediately deter an older worker? Does it say digital native? Do you use a word like high energy or marketing ninja, words that someone who is an older worker might not see themselves? We start there. Then we talk about the value and experience that older workers bring to an organization and educating them on the data. Older workers tend to stay at organizations longer. If you're going to invest and train someone, it might pay off more than if you're training someone younger who might be ready to leave after two years to do something new. We show them the stats of how older workers are continuing to work longer, and so someone at 58 years old might have 12 to 15 more years of work that they want or need to do.
CR: (17:54):
We talk a lot about benefits that an employer could look at that would be relevant to not only attracting an older workforce, but retaining that older workforce. Things like flexibility, part-time work, phased retirement, remote opportunities, caregiving leave, right? There's over 63 million caregivers in this country, and while a good majority of them are under 40, you have a lot of them who are older workers who continue to need to work but are also caring for loved ones that impact their schedule. They might need more flexible options. They might need a different working schedule. So looking at how you're hiring and recruiting for talent, making sure that how you speak about your organization and how you talk about these jobs, but also the imagery you use on your website. Would older workers or older candidates see themselves there? Do you have a range of ages and people that represent your organization into the benefits that older workers are looking for that would attract them to your organization and make them want to stay?
ES: (19:12):
I did a recent podcast about how the benefits world is changing with the way the economy is changing. Some of that had to do with gig workers and that sort of thing, but one of the guests was also involved in the caregiving area, and the point was companies trying to make benefits available for people who had to do caregiving so that they were more flexible in that respect. So, on that note, I wonder, AARP is the most respected organization in the country, I'm sure, in terms of giving advice about how to interact with the older workers, the older generation. Are companies receptive to this? Do they seek out this information? Do they perceive it as important for them to know these things?
CR: (20:00):
Yes, and I think it's continuing to grow within the employers audience. We have what we call our employer pledge program where we have over 3,000 employers who have signed a pledge and are committed to hiring an age diverse workforce. Those employers know the value that older workers or a multigenerational workforce and what it can do for their organization. They're looking to fill jobs with older workers. I mean, they call us, can you help us find these older workers? And we have helped organizations with starting intergenerational ERGs, older worker, ERGs or employee resource groups. We've helped them start caregiving leave benefits. We've helped them with flexible work or phased retirement or part-time benefit options for those who may need it, and they don't want to retain if it's an older worker or a younger worker who's caregiving and might need a more flexible arrangement. And so helping employers understand what could benefit where you can still get that employee to show up every day and work and be productive, but also be able to take their aging mother or grandmother to an appointment or be able to work remotely on a hybrid work schedule so that every Tuesday and Thursday they can take their loved one to an appointment or to whatever they need to do.
CR: (21:39):
So we had from 2012, which was when our employer program began to after the pandemic, 121% increase in pledge participant and signers, and with the changing demographic of the labor market that I've talked about, and over half being 40 and older and the labor market aging and shrinking, more employers are looking at ways to not only attract the older workforce, but retain them.
ES: (22:15):
Let me ask you as we wrap up here, our audience, of course, is legislators, legislative staff, other people interested in state policy, and I'm not going to ask you to give me a prescription for what policies state should pass, but I would ask you, where can people find out more information on this and maybe educate themselves a little more?
CR: (22:35):
Well, first I would tell them to talk to their constituents, talk to the older workforce in their state. What are they experiencing? Have they been looking for work for over six months or close to a year? What have they experienced while trying to find a new job or out there as a job seeker? What are current older workers seeing in their own jobs? Are they getting forced out or pushed out? Talk to their local employers. Who are the big companies and small companies that reside in their state? What are they seeing? What are those big pain points that their CEOs and executives are feeling? And then a RP has tons of resources, not only for their constituents, the consumer level, and they can go to aarp.org/work, find everything from a job board. We've partnered with indeed, the largest job board in the world. They can search for jobs in their field, in their town.
CR: (23:37):
They can find resume help, career coaching, help with interview prep. We have a job search toolkit, which is a downloadable 50 plus page workbook that a job seeker can take and go through all the different steps to help them through their own job search journey. And then we have tons of resources for employers. We have guides on how to manage mixed stage teams. We have a say this not that guide, so that employers can really look at their job descriptions and understand are they using the right imagery and language that wouldn't be cutting out or sort of leaving out different candidate pools. All of that can be found again at aarp.org/work. State legislators can also look to other states. So we have seen not a lot of movement in federal legislation around age discrimination on the workplace. We have continued to try to push Protecting Older Americans Act, or the Protecting Older Workers Against Discrimination Act.
CR: (24:51):
But at the state level, there are a number of states that have been passing legislation where, for instance, in Oregon, they helped pass a bill HB 3187-A. That is prohibiting employers from seeking an applicant's age or date of birth or graduation dates. During that initial interview or that hiring and recruiting process, Colorado has passed a job application, fairness act that's similar. Connecticut passed a ban the box Bill, Delaware, California, Minnesota, and Pennsylvania all have similar bills that they've passed. Go to your other colleagues in other states and see what has worked and what has benefited their older worker population to see if something like that type of bill could work in their state.
ES: (25:43):
Thanks so much for taking the time to do this.
CR: (25:46):
Thanks so much, Ed, for having me. It's been fantastic.
ES: (25:52):
I've been talking with Carly Roszkowski of AARP about the over-50 workforce and its role in the U.S. economy. Thanks for listening.
You can find NCSL podcasts wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast, “Our American States,” dives into some of the most challenging public policy issues facing legislatures. Our occasional series “Across the Aisle,” feature stories of bipartisanship. Also, check out our special series, “Building Democracy,” on the history of legislatures.